5 ms·

Why switching to daylight savings time in the winter is a bad idea

20 points by kareemm 5y ago

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
Not necessarily objecting to the whole thread (I admit I didn't finish it), but I hate this style of argument where one makes a number of steps in the argument and they present a key "linchpin" of that argument as some sort of axiom, but with nothing to back it up: > Think of the last time you had a bad night sleep. You feel bad the next day, but the next night if you sleep well, you'll feel fully recovered from that bad night. But when we spring forward, we often feel bad for weeks. Why does losing that hour have such a profound effect? It is because we are shifted into a state of permanent jet lag with the time change. Your circadian clock follows dawn. The dawn on March 13th in Calgary is at 6:53am, but on DST the next day it is at 7:51am. (I emphasized the relevant sentence) I certainly don't feel bad for weeks after the start of DST, I literally don't know what he's talking about. And, if anything, if I feel sleep deprived it's usually because I go to sleep later because I much enjoy having an extra hour of daylight in the evening.
- jobigoud 5y ago
  I just went on vacation to a country which is -1H from my tz, on the week end of the clock change, so -2H total while traveling in car. All our clocks adjusted and since on vacation we could wake up or go sleeping at any hour. Did not feel anything. In fact we were not sure about the actual time until days later. Even the shifted meal time wasn't really an issue, I guess thanks to being used to intermittent fasting.
  - dorkwood 5y ago
    I think the key difference here might be that you were on vacation. I assume those going to work or school would feel the effects differently.
- secabeen 5y ago
  Agreed. I actually usually feel better with the spring forward, and much worse after the fall back. The entire argument is predicated on an anecdote.
  - newbamboo 5y ago
    No, there is a ton of data and valid science to support the fact that DST is terrible in terms of aggregate health costs.
    - op00to 5y ago
      Care to share some data with us?
      - div72 5y ago
        Not OP, but I know that DST shift-back does increase the risk of heart attacks. As an example, the paper in https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29461606/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29461606/ discusses and references studies done about this topic.
    - secabeen 5y ago
      That is true, but the OPs argument is not based on the data and science. If it were, it would be a much better article!
- newbamboo 5y ago
  You are 1 person. For many people the effects are long lasting and disruptive, if not devastating. You should consider that there are people other than yourself and you know, try to be somewhat empathetic or at least non-solipsistic in your thinking. Just because you don’t suffer from a sleep disorder has no bearing in the fact that millions of other people do.
  - scotuswroteus 5y ago
    Is the parent comment's point that this depth of specific reasoning (maybe with less offense-taking) is needed to justify the linchpin sentence?
    - newbamboo 5y ago
      The linchpin sentence is a statement of well established scientific fact. Is the objection that one cannot google this to learn about this if they don’t already know from the abundance of articles and papers written on the subject? It seems the objection is that he doesn’t have a sleep problem. Well, that’s great, but so what?
  - op00to 5y ago
    How many people? How are they affected? I am sure many people feel bad after the time change, but they may also just feel bad anyway.
    - newbamboo 5y ago
      Google it. How many people have sleep problems? It’s a very large number. The effects are certainly in the billions, given the health impacts associated with sleep problems. This stuff is pretty common knowledge and I’m sort amazed people would be like, “wait, some people aren’t getting a good nights sleep every night? I had no idea!”
      - coldtea 5y ago
        >Google it. How many people have sleep problems? It’s a very large number. The effects are certainly in the billions, given the health impacts associated with sleep problems. That's neither here, nor there. The parent didn't ask how many people have sleep problems, but how many people have sleep problems because of the DST, and even more so, problems that last "2 to 3 weeks" as the article claims. People have sleep problems for all kinds of reasons (apnea, stress, weight issues, checking Wikipedia at 3am and so on).
jleyank 5y ago
Don’t most people get up later on sat and sun if they work during the week? This doesn’t seem to bother them.
aaron695 5y ago
HN just eats up the main thesis of their argument without question or comment? Adds up for HN. Sounds like total bullshit to me. I've never heard such an outlandish idea before related to DST. But whateves, lets accept without proof or logic. Cutting edge stuff for driving north or south as well. All the science is now overturned on this one comment on this twitter thread. Things you learn on HN. > It is April 9th before dawn again occurs at 6:53am. At this point your circadian and social clocks are realigned

20 points by kareemm 5y ago

Not necessarily objecting to the whole thread (I admit I didn't finish it), but I hate this style of argument where one makes a number of steps in the argument and they present a key "linchpin" of that argument as some sort of axiom, but with nothing to back it up: > Think of the last time you had a bad night sleep. You feel bad the next day, but the next night if you sleep well, you'll feel fully recovered from that bad night. But when we spring forward, we often feel bad for weeks. Why does losing that hour have such a profound effect? It is because we are shifted into a state of permanent jet lag with the time change. Your circadian clock follows dawn. The dawn on March 13th in Calgary is at 6:53am, but on DST the next day it is at 7:51am. (I emphasized the relevant sentence) I certainly don't feel bad for weeks after the start of DST, I literally don't know what he's talking about. And, if anything, if I feel sleep deprived it's usually because I go to sleep later because I much enjoy having an extra hour of daylight in the evening.

jobigoud 5y ago
I just went on vacation to a country which is -1H from my tz, on the week end of the clock change, so -2H total while traveling in car. All our clocks adjusted and since on vacation we could wake up or go sleeping at any hour. Did not feel anything. In fact we were not sure about the actual time until days later. Even the shifted meal time wasn't really an issue, I guess thanks to being used to intermittent fasting.
- dorkwood 5y ago
  I think the key difference here might be that you were on vacation. I assume those going to work or school would feel the effects differently.
secabeen 5y ago
Agreed. I actually usually feel better with the spring forward, and much worse after the fall back. The entire argument is predicated on an anecdote.
- newbamboo 5y ago
  No, there is a ton of data and valid science to support the fact that DST is terrible in terms of aggregate health costs.
  - op00to 5y ago
    Care to share some data with us?
    - div72 5y ago
      Not OP, but I know that DST shift-back does increase the risk of heart attacks. As an example, the paper in https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29461606/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29461606/ discusses and references studies done about this topic.
  - secabeen 5y ago
    That is true, but the OPs argument is not based on the data and science. If it were, it would be a much better article!
newbamboo 5y ago
You are 1 person. For many people the effects are long lasting and disruptive, if not devastating. You should consider that there are people other than yourself and you know, try to be somewhat empathetic or at least non-solipsistic in your thinking. Just because you don’t suffer from a sleep disorder has no bearing in the fact that millions of other people do.
- scotuswroteus 5y ago
  Is the parent comment's point that this depth of specific reasoning (maybe with less offense-taking) is needed to justify the linchpin sentence?
  - newbamboo 5y ago
    The linchpin sentence is a statement of well established scientific fact. Is the objection that one cannot google this to learn about this if they don’t already know from the abundance of articles and papers written on the subject? It seems the objection is that he doesn’t have a sleep problem. Well, that’s great, but so what?
- op00to 5y ago
  How many people? How are they affected? I am sure many people feel bad after the time change, but they may also just feel bad anyway.
  - newbamboo 5y ago
    Google it. How many people have sleep problems? It’s a very large number. The effects are certainly in the billions, given the health impacts associated with sleep problems. This stuff is pretty common knowledge and I’m sort amazed people would be like, “wait, some people aren’t getting a good nights sleep every night? I had no idea!”
    - coldtea 5y ago
      >Google it. How many people have sleep problems? It’s a very large number. The effects are certainly in the billions, given the health impacts associated with sleep problems. That's neither here, nor there. The parent didn't ask how many people have sleep problems, but how many people have sleep problems because of the DST, and even more so, problems that last "2 to 3 weeks" as the article claims. People have sleep problems for all kinds of reasons (apnea, stress, weight issues, checking Wikipedia at 3am and so on).

jleyank 5y ago

Don’t most people get up later on sat and sun if they work during the week? This doesn’t seem to bother them.

aaron695 5y ago

HN just eats up the main thesis of their argument without question or comment? Adds up for HN. Sounds like total bullshit to me. I've never heard such an outlandish idea before related to DST. But whateves, lets accept without proof or logic. Cutting edge stuff for driving north or south as well. All the science is now overturned on this one comment on this twitter thread. Things you learn on HN. > It is April 9th before dawn again occurs at 6:53am. At this point your circadian and social clocks are realigned