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> We never wait for a server to restart I'm not sure I understand. When I run Python's REPL, I'm running the interpreter on my local machine; I'm not talking t

by pdonis 5y ago

> We never wait for a server to restart I'm not sure I understand. When I run Python's REPL, I'm running the interpreter on my local machine; I'm not talking to any server. The same would be true if I run the Lisp interpreter, but I don't see how that is any advantage for Lisp over Python.

ahefner 5y ago
Start your Python REPL, do your interactive development, measure your average time before aborting and reloading the python instance. How much time elapses? Minutes? Hours? When I've done Common Lisp heavily, I've lived in the same instance between multiple days up to weeks. This feels perfectly natural. Admittedly it is hard to justify why this difference is meaningful.
vindarel 5y ago
indeed, I was thinking web development for that example, but I'm talking to my local development server, not a remote one (although it's trivially possible with a swank connection). I often have to wait for Django in a non-trivial app. I often set a ipython breakpoint, try things out, continue, and iterate. Anyways, do you develop your app when you are in the REPL? Or do you try things out in the REPL and write back what you found out in the files? If you found how to send changes from your editor to the REPL, then good, but it's not built-in, and it will lack the other things I mentioned.
- pdonis 5y ago
  > do you develop your app when you are in the REPL? Or do you try things out in the REPL and write back what you found out in the files? Yes. :-) Both strategies can be useful. (And note that "app" does not necessarily mean "web app"; web applications are just one kind of application. There are lots of different kinds of applications. The REPL helps with all of them.)
  - vindarel 5y ago
    sure. Then a web app is a clear example of Lisp's increased interactivity.
    - pdonis 5y ago
      The increased interactivity appears to be due to your particular framework, which you have built using Lisp but which is not the same as just "Lisp". Similar frameworks have, I believe, been built using Python.
      - vindarel 5y ago
        The linked article of Mikel Evins further in the thread might give you more hints.
        pdonis 5y ago
        Other than the "breakloop" functionality, which I agree is (AFAIK) unique to Lisp interpreters, I don't see anything described there that can't be done in a Python REPL.
        chillpenguin 5y ago
        If you can't understand what people are trying to say, I recommend trying to experience it for yourself. Install Common Lisp along with Slime for Emacs, and try things out. Or try out a Smalltalk environment like Squeak or Pharo which would also give you the same "enlightening" experience. I know you are skeptical because python has a repl too and so it is hard to see what these "live" environments like lisp/smalltalk are offering. But trust me (and the others) that there is more than what python offers. I have written python professionally probably more than any other language I have used, so I'm not ignorant of python btw. No one is trying to fool you. But you don't have to take our word, please try it out for yourself!
        pdonis 5y ago
        > If you can't understand what people are trying to say I understand it just fine. I've used a Lisp REPL. I'm just pointing out that not all of the features of the Lisp REPL that are being mentioned are unique to Lisp. > I know you are skeptical I'm not "skeptical" at all about what can be done in a Lisp REPL. As I just said, I've used it. I have not claimed that a single thing anyone has said about the Lisp REPL is false. I think you are reading things into my posts that I have not said. > you don't have to take our word, please try it out for yourself As I said above, I already have. Don't jump to conclusions.

by pdonis 5y ago

ahefner 5y ago

Start your Python REPL, do your interactive development, measure your average time before aborting and reloading the python instance. How much time elapses? Minutes? Hours? When I've done Common Lisp heavily, I've lived in the same instance between multiple days up to weeks. This feels perfectly natural. Admittedly it is hard to justify why this difference is meaningful.

vindarel 5y ago

indeed, I was thinking web development for that example, but I'm talking to my local development server, not a remote one (although it's trivially possible with a swank connection). I often have to wait for Django in a non-trivial app. I often set a ipython breakpoint, try things out, continue, and iterate. Anyways, do you develop your app when you are in the REPL? Or do you try things out in the REPL and write back what you found out in the files? If you found how to send changes from your editor to the REPL, then good, but it's not built-in, and it will lack the other things I mentioned.

pdonis 5y ago
> do you develop your app when you are in the REPL? Or do you try things out in the REPL and write back what you found out in the files? Yes. :-) Both strategies can be useful. (And note that "app" does not necessarily mean "web app"; web applications are just one kind of application. There are lots of different kinds of applications. The REPL helps with all of them.)
- vindarel 5y ago
  sure. Then a web app is a clear example of Lisp's increased interactivity.
  - pdonis 5y ago
    The increased interactivity appears to be due to your particular framework, which you have built using Lisp but which is not the same as just "Lisp". Similar frameworks have, I believe, been built using Python.
    - vindarel 5y ago
      The linked article of Mikel Evins further in the thread might give you more hints.
      - pdonis 5y ago
        Other than the "breakloop" functionality, which I agree is (AFAIK) unique to Lisp interpreters, I don't see anything described there that can't be done in a Python REPL.
        chillpenguin 5y ago
        If you can't understand what people are trying to say, I recommend trying to experience it for yourself. Install Common Lisp along with Slime for Emacs, and try things out. Or try out a Smalltalk environment like Squeak or Pharo which would also give you the same "enlightening" experience. I know you are skeptical because python has a repl too and so it is hard to see what these "live" environments like lisp/smalltalk are offering. But trust me (and the others) that there is more than what python offers. I have written python professionally probably more than any other language I have used, so I'm not ignorant of python btw. No one is trying to fool you. But you don't have to take our word, please try it out for yourself!
        pdonis 5y ago
        > If you can't understand what people are trying to say I understand it just fine. I've used a Lisp REPL. I'm just pointing out that not all of the features of the Lisp REPL that are being mentioned are unique to Lisp. > I know you are skeptical I'm not "skeptical" at all about what can be done in a Lisp REPL. As I just said, I've used it. I have not claimed that a single thing anyone has said about the Lisp REPL is false. I think you are reading things into my posts that I have not said. > you don't have to take our word, please try it out for yourself As I said above, I already have. Don't jump to conclusions.