5 ms·

Weird. It was verifiably not about slavery - at least not from the beginning. It was not an issue until well into the war. Also, I completely disagree with you

Weird. It was verifiably not about slavery - at least not from the beginning. It was not an issue until well into the war. Also, I completely disagree with your interpretation. Recognizing that people at that time, on both sides, did not actually care all that much about the plight of the slaves, does not 'downplay historical racism', quite the contrary. It goes a long way to explain why blacks, even after emancipation, never really got a fair chance in America, to this day. I am not an American and have no dog in the fight, for what it's worth.

pasabagi 5y ago
You're misinformed. Read any current, mainstream work of scholarship on the issue. EDIT: this is a bit short, but honestly, without any rancor, mainstream scholarship is pretty unanimous on this topic. Popular discourse is more divided.
pchristensen 5y ago
I was a little startled by your statement, so I charitably tried to figure out where it was coming from. Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Confederate_States#Analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Confederat...) said that the South seceded to protect slavery, but the North attacked the South to put down the rebellion, not necessarily to free slaves. So I would say that you were technically right that the Civil War was not declared to end slavery, but the overall conflict (and 30+ years leading up to it) was unquestionably about slavery.
- t-3 5y ago
  Try variable substitution. If the modern right believed that the left wanted to take all their guns and destroy their way of life, and attempted to secede based on that, it doesn't matter that most on the left don't care at all about limiting gun rights, the war that results will still be about guns, because that is the simple answer. Republicanism (relating to republics, not asses and elephants), libertarian ideals, subordination of government to the people all CANNOT be discussed as motives, because the simple, loud and ideologically clear position of individual vs collective capacity for violence is too big and drowns out the nuance. Similarly, the actual US Civil War cannot be reasonably discussed, because consideration of any other socioeconomic and historical factors in addition to that of slavery is seen as ignoring or attempting to whitewash the institution of chattel slavery. The rural/urban industrial/agricultural divide is still a big issue in the modern context, and we still avoid actually discussing it, instead focusing on the implications of such a divide: illegal immigration, migrant worker exploitation, human trafficking, etc. The shifting of the Overton Window feeds back into our perceptions, and reinforces a black/white, everything has an answer worldview.
krapp 5y ago
> Weird. It was verifiably not about slavery - at least not from the beginning. It was not an issue until well into the war. The civil war was verifiably about slavery from the beginning[0]. South Carolina explicitly mentioned slavery as part of its rationale for secession[1], as did numerous other states[2]. Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America, declared slavery to be its very cornerstone[3]: "our new government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." Even the "states rights'" arguments around the Civil War boil down to specifically the Southern states defending their right to continue slavery without interference from the North. That's what they were seceding over. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_... [1]https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp [2]https://www.historynet.com/which-states-referred-to-slavery-in-their-cause-of-secession.htm https://www.historynet.com/which-states-referred-to-slavery-... [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech
- johnyzee 5y ago
  The fact that slavery was part of their state charters does not show that the war was started over slavery. The fact is that Lincoln upheld the rights of the Southern states with regards to slavery, both before and after the start of the civil war. This is a quote from Lincoln on the campaign trail immediately before his election and the start of the war [1]: I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. (He goes on like this at length) From Lincoln's inaugural address, after secession and war had started [2]: I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. Lincoln also prohibited a policy of promising freedom for slaves that would support the Union in the early stages of the war (several states that were part of the Union were also slave states). It was only well into the war that the tune was changed, at a politically opportune time, and, as we know, not always with great concern or a great outcome for the former slaves. I am surprised that people would be taken aback by this. These are well established historical facts, and well known, I guess outside the U.S. educational system. [1] https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate4.htm https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate4.htm [2] https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln1.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln1.asp

pasabagi 5y ago

You're misinformed. Read any current, mainstream work of scholarship on the issue. EDIT: this is a bit short, but honestly, without any rancor, mainstream scholarship is pretty unanimous on this topic. Popular discourse is more divided.

pchristensen 5y ago

I was a little startled by your statement, so I charitably tried to figure out where it was coming from. Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Confederate_States#Analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_Confederat...) said that the South seceded to protect slavery, but the North attacked the South to put down the rebellion, not necessarily to free slaves. So I would say that you were technically right that the Civil War was not declared to end slavery, but the overall conflict (and 30+ years leading up to it) was unquestionably about slavery.

t-3 5y ago
Try variable substitution. If the modern right believed that the left wanted to take all their guns and destroy their way of life, and attempted to secede based on that, it doesn't matter that most on the left don't care at all about limiting gun rights, the war that results will still be about guns, because that is the simple answer. Republicanism (relating to republics, not asses and elephants), libertarian ideals, subordination of government to the people all CANNOT be discussed as motives, because the simple, loud and ideologically clear position of individual vs collective capacity for violence is too big and drowns out the nuance. Similarly, the actual US Civil War cannot be reasonably discussed, because consideration of any other socioeconomic and historical factors in addition to that of slavery is seen as ignoring or attempting to whitewash the institution of chattel slavery. The rural/urban industrial/agricultural divide is still a big issue in the modern context, and we still avoid actually discussing it, instead focusing on the implications of such a divide: illegal immigration, migrant worker exploitation, human trafficking, etc. The shifting of the Overton Window feeds back into our perceptions, and reinforces a black/white, everything has an answer worldview.

krapp 5y ago

> Weird. It was verifiably not about slavery - at least not from the beginning. It was not an issue until well into the war. The civil war was verifiably about slavery from the beginning[0]. South Carolina explicitly mentioned slavery as part of its rationale for secession[1], as did numerous other states[2]. Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America, declared slavery to be its very cornerstone[3]: "our new government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth." Even the "states rights'" arguments around the Civil War boil down to specifically the Southern states defending their right to continue slavery without interference from the North. That's what they were seceding over. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_... [1]https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp [2]https://www.historynet.com/which-states-referred-to-slavery-in-their-cause-of-secession.htm https://www.historynet.com/which-states-referred-to-slavery-... [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

johnyzee 5y ago
The fact that slavery was part of their state charters does not show that the war was started over slavery. The fact is that Lincoln upheld the rights of the Southern states with regards to slavery, both before and after the start of the civil war. This is a quote from Lincoln on the campaign trail immediately before his election and the start of the war [1]: I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. (He goes on like this at length) From Lincoln's inaugural address, after secession and war had started [2]: I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. Lincoln also prohibited a policy of promising freedom for slaves that would support the Union in the early stages of the war (several states that were part of the Union were also slave states). It was only well into the war that the tune was changed, at a politically opportune time, and, as we know, not always with great concern or a great outcome for the former slaves. I am surprised that people would be taken aback by this. These are well established historical facts, and well known, I guess outside the U.S. educational system. [1] https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate4.htm https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate4.htm [2] https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln1.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln1.asp