15 ms·

(Portuguese here) Portuguese Parliament and Government publish law every day and afterhours[1], as a citizen I have to keep up with this. MPs believe they are d

(Portuguese here) Portuguese Parliament and Government publish law every day and afterhours[1], as a citizen I have to keep up with this. MPs believe they are doing a great job by producing more Law, instead of checking if what is in place is accountable. A common behaviour is when a "crime" case is well covered by the media, the first thing is said "we need to change the Law", trying to dodge blame. I have been working remote for 17 years, and the teams I worked in, work asynchronously. It is fine to text, slack, discord and email after hours, people don't expect to get answers immediately, they will reply according to their schedule or contract. One case is that employers have to compensate employees for electricity and utilities for working remote, in my case that is a cost of €10.58, I save much more for not commuting, financially and psychologically. [1] https://dre.pt/dre/home https://dre.pt/dre/home

CoffeeOnWrite 5y ago
> I have been working remote for 17 years This suggests you are likely a member of the professional class. A lot of labor regulation in the US (my country) is intended to protect the working class, not the professional class. Perhaps that was the intention of your politicians? (This legislation does sound like treating a symptom, and not unlikely to have unintended detrimental consequences. But we should still empathize with and consider the needs of those workers less privileged than ourselves)
- dymk 5y ago
  That the law might work in one case doesn't justify it as a good law - the law should consider at least some of the edge cases, especially if it's going to negatively impact such a large class of workers as the "professional class". It's also unclear that there's no scenario in which the non "professional class" would benefit from being able to be texted by their boss.
  - gkop 5y ago
    Where in my comment are you getting that I think it’s a good law? Bluntly, with my very limited context (no, I didn’t read the article), it sounds like a dumb law. I take to heart original commenter’s complaint that their country’s politicians produce a large volume of dumb laws, I hope disgust with the median politician is something we can all agree on.
    - leanstartupnoob 5y ago
      Hard to read your comment as anything other than defending the law as "something must be done" to protect the poor non-professionals.
      - OJFord 5y ago
        'treating a symptom [not the cause]' is basically an idiom for 'at best meh'.
- noduerme 5y ago
  >> But we should still empathize with and consider the needs of those workers less privileged than ourselves Why? Or else what? They might look for better jobs?
  - geon 5y ago
    Or else you are not a good person.
  - idiocratic 5y ago
    Not everyone can have a better job. Sorry but your comment reveals how little empathy we, software engineers, can have at times.
    - noduerme 5y ago
      >> Not everyone can have a better job I'd counter that your comment reveals disdain for people who you wrongly assume can't improve their skills or economic outlook. I could make a long list of people I know who taught themselves new skills and leveled up to new jobs - code or otherwise - without the need for "empathy" from someone who was certain they were less "privileged" and therefore should be pitied.
      - apocolyps6 5y ago
        So for the 97% of humanity that are worse off than american software engineers, you think they are just not trying hard enough?
        noduerme 5y ago
        You might have way too high an idea of the place software engineers occupy in the economic and social hierarchy. We're trash compared to the money people. I just choose not to be angry about it, so I hope the guy serving me a burger chooses not to be angry about my job placement too; I'm more than happy to tutor him.
      - eggsmediumrare 5y ago
andrepd 5y ago
In tech jobs, you probably are in a bubble. Most jobs won't have such respecting bosses, it's pretty much the norm in many places to demand unpaid work after-hours. The move to remote work has worsened this problem because the line between work hours and off-work hours is even more blurred.
- aksss 5y ago
  It's doubly hard to maintain boundaries if you actually enjoy the work you do. Too easy to come home and just keep doing it. Not the healthiest though. I think the blurring of work/personal time is a mixed bag. Sure my personal life gets interrupted occasionally, but there's also an expectation from many employers that you're going to be conducting more personal business during business hours too. In my jobs, I've typically been able to manage the work invading personal time downwards towards zero reasonably well while taking more advantage of (and appreciating) a more flexible business environment.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    Establishing boundaries is an art. Not to be a cynic, but it's not only the boundaries with the boss. The significant other is the main competitor for your time on a weeknight. I've known a lot of people who said they just wanted to go radio-silent so they could spend more time with their kids, only to realize they truly wish they could be left totally alone for five minutes - or a year. You have to give some serious weight to your own sanity. Make it clear that if you go insane, none of this work is going to get done.
- noduerme 5y ago
  I haven't had a day without a work phone call since 2004. Even when I was living off the grid in the Australian outback for a year, I had to find places to check messages, and dialup modems to commit code changes. I'd never hire someone I couldn't call when I needed them, just like my employers would never hire me if I couldn't be called. Just the way it is. I like my freedom more than most people, so I find ways to balance their [my clients'] needs against my autonomy.
eyelidlessness 5y ago
If you work asynchronously, it should be no problem to schedule your messages within the working hours of the recipient.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I have many group slack, group text, and WhatsApp channels where I don’t even know the working hours of all the people in them. I have other channels where I do know everyone and also know there is literally no overlap in natural working hours of all the recipients. My leadership team channel (as an example) has members in India, Switzerland, and both coasts of the US.
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    Okay so all you need to do to comply with this law is collect working hours.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      How would that help? (Or maybe “what does that mean?”) The net effect for some is likely to be “to ensure compliance, make sure to never employ someone from Portugal.” To the extent that is the outcome, Portuguese workers are harmed.
      - eyelidlessness 5y ago
        It just means respecting when your coworkers work and scheduling messages to them in those bounds. It’s not that complicated.
        shakkhar 5y ago
        You have clearly never worked in a large geographically distributed group.
        sokoloff 5y ago
PicassoCTs 5y ago
This seems, pretty easy to fullfill technical wise.. just store the work-messages in dbs and trigger the send, when the person switches the app into work-mode.
santiagobasulto 5y ago
Unrelated question. How is Portugal in terms of taxes for people working remotely as contractors (for the US in my case)? I'm an Italian citizenship and I was considering Portugal as my next stop.
- ryanlol 5y ago
  Look up the NHR program, you can probably structure this in an extremely tax efficient manner. 0% tax for the first 10 years.
b0rsuk 5y ago
> MPs believe they are doing a great job by producing more Law, instead of checking if what is in place is accountable. In the 5th roundest country in the world we call it "legislative diarrhea".

CoffeeOnWrite 5y ago

> I have been working remote for 17 years This suggests you are likely a member of the professional class. A lot of labor regulation in the US (my country) is intended to protect the working class, not the professional class. Perhaps that was the intention of your politicians? (This legislation does sound like treating a symptom, and not unlikely to have unintended detrimental consequences. But we should still empathize with and consider the needs of those workers less privileged than ourselves)

dymk 5y ago
That the law might work in one case doesn't justify it as a good law - the law should consider at least some of the edge cases, especially if it's going to negatively impact such a large class of workers as the "professional class". It's also unclear that there's no scenario in which the non "professional class" would benefit from being able to be texted by their boss.
- gkop 5y ago
  Where in my comment are you getting that I think it’s a good law? Bluntly, with my very limited context (no, I didn’t read the article), it sounds like a dumb law. I take to heart original commenter’s complaint that their country’s politicians produce a large volume of dumb laws, I hope disgust with the median politician is something we can all agree on.
  - leanstartupnoob 5y ago
    Hard to read your comment as anything other than defending the law as "something must be done" to protect the poor non-professionals.
    - OJFord 5y ago
      'treating a symptom [not the cause]' is basically an idiom for 'at best meh'.
noduerme 5y ago
>> But we should still empathize with and consider the needs of those workers less privileged than ourselves Why? Or else what? They might look for better jobs?
- geon 5y ago
  Or else you are not a good person.
- idiocratic 5y ago
  Not everyone can have a better job. Sorry but your comment reveals how little empathy we, software engineers, can have at times.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    >> Not everyone can have a better job I'd counter that your comment reveals disdain for people who you wrongly assume can't improve their skills or economic outlook. I could make a long list of people I know who taught themselves new skills and leveled up to new jobs - code or otherwise - without the need for "empathy" from someone who was certain they were less "privileged" and therefore should be pitied.
    - apocolyps6 5y ago
      So for the 97% of humanity that are worse off than american software engineers, you think they are just not trying hard enough?
      - noduerme 5y ago
        You might have way too high an idea of the place software engineers occupy in the economic and social hierarchy. We're trash compared to the money people. I just choose not to be angry about it, so I hope the guy serving me a burger chooses not to be angry about my job placement too; I'm more than happy to tutor him.
    - eggsmediumrare 5y ago

andrepd 5y ago

In tech jobs, you probably are in a bubble. Most jobs won't have such respecting bosses, it's pretty much the norm in many places to demand unpaid work after-hours. The move to remote work has worsened this problem because the line between work hours and off-work hours is even more blurred.

aksss 5y ago
It's doubly hard to maintain boundaries if you actually enjoy the work you do. Too easy to come home and just keep doing it. Not the healthiest though. I think the blurring of work/personal time is a mixed bag. Sure my personal life gets interrupted occasionally, but there's also an expectation from many employers that you're going to be conducting more personal business during business hours too. In my jobs, I've typically been able to manage the work invading personal time downwards towards zero reasonably well while taking more advantage of (and appreciating) a more flexible business environment.
- noduerme 5y ago
  Establishing boundaries is an art. Not to be a cynic, but it's not only the boundaries with the boss. The significant other is the main competitor for your time on a weeknight. I've known a lot of people who said they just wanted to go radio-silent so they could spend more time with their kids, only to realize they truly wish they could be left totally alone for five minutes - or a year. You have to give some serious weight to your own sanity. Make it clear that if you go insane, none of this work is going to get done.
noduerme 5y ago
I haven't had a day without a work phone call since 2004. Even when I was living off the grid in the Australian outback for a year, I had to find places to check messages, and dialup modems to commit code changes. I'd never hire someone I couldn't call when I needed them, just like my employers would never hire me if I couldn't be called. Just the way it is. I like my freedom more than most people, so I find ways to balance their [my clients'] needs against my autonomy.

eyelidlessness 5y ago

If you work asynchronously, it should be no problem to schedule your messages within the working hours of the recipient.

sokoloff 5y ago
I have many group slack, group text, and WhatsApp channels where I don’t even know the working hours of all the people in them. I have other channels where I do know everyone and also know there is literally no overlap in natural working hours of all the recipients. My leadership team channel (as an example) has members in India, Switzerland, and both coasts of the US.
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  Okay so all you need to do to comply with this law is collect working hours.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    How would that help? (Or maybe “what does that mean?”) The net effect for some is likely to be “to ensure compliance, make sure to never employ someone from Portugal.” To the extent that is the outcome, Portuguese workers are harmed.
    - eyelidlessness 5y ago
      It just means respecting when your coworkers work and scheduling messages to them in those bounds. It’s not that complicated.
      - shakkhar 5y ago
        You have clearly never worked in a large geographically distributed group.
      - sokoloff 5y ago

PicassoCTs 5y ago

This seems, pretty easy to fullfill technical wise.. just store the work-messages in dbs and trigger the send, when the person switches the app into work-mode.

santiagobasulto 5y ago

Unrelated question. How is Portugal in terms of taxes for people working remotely as contractors (for the US in my case)? I'm an Italian citizenship and I was considering Portugal as my next stop.

ryanlol 5y ago
Look up the NHR program, you can probably structure this in an extremely tax efficient manner. 0% tax for the first 10 years.

b0rsuk 5y ago

> MPs believe they are doing a great job by producing more Law, instead of checking if what is in place is accountable. In the 5th roundest country in the world we call it "legislative diarrhea".