6 ms·

What I am saying you could hack the power to torque factor to be so high you don't really have to exert very much force at all.

jacquesm 5y ago
You can't. These bikes are DRM'd to the hilt and any attempt at hacking them will cause the bike to brick itself which you can only reset at the dealership. You can do that three times and then it's permanent. The penalties for having such a hack detected on your bike - assuming you would get away with it - is confiscation. I would strongly advise against such tricks. You can see how much work just changing out the battery was. There are plenty of parties selling limiter removers or speed boxes but they're all illegal and you are uninsured when using such a device. My bike is perfectly legal to ride.
- 0des 5y ago
  > You can't. These bikes are DRM'd to the hilt and any attempt at hacking them will cause the bike to brick itself This does not match reality at all. E-bikes are some of the most modify-able and hackable devices out there. Most of the parts are interchangeable, and a decent portion of these bikes are assembled piece by piece. I can change the acceleration profile of mine at will, via bluetooth. Amperage limits, battery codes, everything. I have used many devices and parts and kits, and have never even once seen DRM present.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Oh, sure, I'm making it all up. I just spent two months picking apart the Bosch e-bike system, I think by now I know what I'm talking about but feel free to prove me wrong and show me how you're able to get your battery to talk to a Bosch controller without using a Bosch BMS. Hint: you won't be able to, the key is embedded in an NXP processor that has it's fuses blown (both sides, controller and battery) and any kind of hacking you want to do will have to be at the sensor level and even there I would advise you to use an older version of the firmware because the newer ones are very good at detecting such hacks.
    - llampx 5y ago
      I think you both can be correct. The more expensive e-bikes as sold in the EU are DRM'd to the hilt, whereas cheaper bikes sold elsewhere or assembled from kits won't have any restrictions. On reddit/r/ebikes you can see some crazy builds that would get you a hefty fine in most of Europe.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        I did write 'these bikes', as in Bosch based e-bikes, specifically s-pedelecs. It is pretty obvious I'm only talking about this kind of bike, not about 'all bikes out there including those in other countries and cobbled together from parts'.
        nybble41 5y ago
        No one else was taking specifically about Bosch systems (edit: in the comments, not the article) until you came along, and your original reply didn't mention them by name. There are lots of e-bikes out there, including pure "pedelecs" with no hand-operated throttle, which do not use Bosch parts and do not have torque sensors. They assist when the pedals are moving, not when you're applying pressure.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        The article is mine. And that's the context in which you can read my comments.
        nybble41 5y ago
        I realize the article is yours, but you responded as if you were talking about all pedal-assist electric bikes (as the comment you replied to undoubtedly was), not just your particular model.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Read again: the claim is that these bikes can be hacked. Believe me I tried and reverse engineering is not something that I have a moral block against or so. Every s-pedelec that I'm aware of is legal to buy and drive on the roads here is locked down. The Bosch system is the one that I now have extensive experience with and the handshake between the controller, the motor and then battery is of a complexity level that I have not managed to crack it despite a serious effort in that direction. Time will tell if I will eventually manage to run my own firmware but right now I'm not hopeful that that will ever happen (I'd love to update the range computation algorithm). Regular e-bikes (the 25 kph version) are hacked with abandon but even then you are no longer legal (here, in NL and many other european countries). The Bosch system (which has substantial market share in that domain) can be hacked but only at the sensor level, and it's clever enough that it tries to detect such trickery and if it does it will brick itself. The factory diagnostic software contains a field for 'cheat detected' and it's pretty sensitive (to the point that sometimes bikes that have not been modified get flagged). If you get a supermarket Bafang or other bike, especially older models then you are likely going to be able to hack it, but there too you won't find any s-pedelecs. The few brands that sell them are all pretty good at locking down their stuff. Build a bike from parts and it's a different story, but then you won't get a license plate, type approval or insurance and your bike won't be legal to drive on the roads.
- thinkmassive 5y ago
  > The penalties for having such a hack detected on your bike … is confiscation In what jurisdiction? Edit: just realized it’s your article and you’re in NL. Confiscation might be an issue there but it’s not universal by any stretch.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    It's treated the same way as a souped up scooter would be. Get caught and you are more than likely to lose it. The good news is that you can then try to buy it back at government auction ;)
- wing-_-nuts 5y ago
  >but they're all illegal and you are uninsured when using such a device. My bike is perfectly legal to ride. Plenty of people 'technically' break the law in small ways every day. If your bike looks like a normal bike, and you're not doing outlandish speeds, I'm not sure it matters whether or not your bike is 'technically legal'.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Right up to the point when you cause and accident, it turns out that you are not insured and you are now in debt for the rest of your life. This is not a small matter.
    - wing-_-nuts 5y ago
      How does someone on a bike 'cause an accident'? How exactly is a cop going to know that you've modified your bike? They aren't tour de france officials. I'd be fine taking my chances. You seem to have a very legalistic outlook that doesn't translate to reality.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        The police here is pretty good at accident mechanics, the insurance will insist and if your bike has been modded you are in pretty hot water. My 'legalistic outlook' is mostly informed by the local news. But don't take my word for it, have a read: https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&q=opgevoerde+e-bike+onverzekerd https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&q=opgevoerde+e-bike...
- bob29 5y ago
  Another clueless American ebiker question about Europeon law. Is the article's bike legal? Individual can self build a high energy battery with parts and tools from online sellers putting an alibaba balance charger in parallel with the original BMS, no external testing review or inspection. And the authorities/insurance don't care about this customization vs the factory model they presumably inspected before certifying. Alternatively if you software configure a motor controller so that it sends motor current from a throttle instead of a torque sensor in the pedals, you'll be busted?

jacquesm 5y ago

You can't. These bikes are DRM'd to the hilt and any attempt at hacking them will cause the bike to brick itself which you can only reset at the dealership. You can do that three times and then it's permanent. The penalties for having such a hack detected on your bike - assuming you would get away with it - is confiscation. I would strongly advise against such tricks. You can see how much work just changing out the battery was. There are plenty of parties selling limiter removers or speed boxes but they're all illegal and you are uninsured when using such a device. My bike is perfectly legal to ride.

0des 5y ago
> You can't. These bikes are DRM'd to the hilt and any attempt at hacking them will cause the bike to brick itself This does not match reality at all. E-bikes are some of the most modify-able and hackable devices out there. Most of the parts are interchangeable, and a decent portion of these bikes are assembled piece by piece. I can change the acceleration profile of mine at will, via bluetooth. Amperage limits, battery codes, everything. I have used many devices and parts and kits, and have never even once seen DRM present.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Oh, sure, I'm making it all up. I just spent two months picking apart the Bosch e-bike system, I think by now I know what I'm talking about but feel free to prove me wrong and show me how you're able to get your battery to talk to a Bosch controller without using a Bosch BMS. Hint: you won't be able to, the key is embedded in an NXP processor that has it's fuses blown (both sides, controller and battery) and any kind of hacking you want to do will have to be at the sensor level and even there I would advise you to use an older version of the firmware because the newer ones are very good at detecting such hacks.
  - llampx 5y ago
    I think you both can be correct. The more expensive e-bikes as sold in the EU are DRM'd to the hilt, whereas cheaper bikes sold elsewhere or assembled from kits won't have any restrictions. On reddit/r/ebikes you can see some crazy builds that would get you a hefty fine in most of Europe.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      I did write 'these bikes', as in Bosch based e-bikes, specifically s-pedelecs. It is pretty obvious I'm only talking about this kind of bike, not about 'all bikes out there including those in other countries and cobbled together from parts'.
      - nybble41 5y ago
        No one else was taking specifically about Bosch systems (edit: in the comments, not the article) until you came along, and your original reply didn't mention them by name. There are lots of e-bikes out there, including pure "pedelecs" with no hand-operated throttle, which do not use Bosch parts and do not have torque sensors. They assist when the pedals are moving, not when you're applying pressure.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        The article is mine. And that's the context in which you can read my comments.
        nybble41 5y ago
        I realize the article is yours, but you responded as if you were talking about all pedal-assist electric bikes (as the comment you replied to undoubtedly was), not just your particular model.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Read again: the claim is that these bikes can be hacked. Believe me I tried and reverse engineering is not something that I have a moral block against or so. Every s-pedelec that I'm aware of is legal to buy and drive on the roads here is locked down. The Bosch system is the one that I now have extensive experience with and the handshake between the controller, the motor and then battery is of a complexity level that I have not managed to crack it despite a serious effort in that direction. Time will tell if I will eventually manage to run my own firmware but right now I'm not hopeful that that will ever happen (I'd love to update the range computation algorithm). Regular e-bikes (the 25 kph version) are hacked with abandon but even then you are no longer legal (here, in NL and many other european countries). The Bosch system (which has substantial market share in that domain) can be hacked but only at the sensor level, and it's clever enough that it tries to detect such trickery and if it does it will brick itself. The factory diagnostic software contains a field for 'cheat detected' and it's pretty sensitive (to the point that sometimes bikes that have not been modified get flagged). If you get a supermarket Bafang or other bike, especially older models then you are likely going to be able to hack it, but there too you won't find any s-pedelecs. The few brands that sell them are all pretty good at locking down their stuff. Build a bike from parts and it's a different story, but then you won't get a license plate, type approval or insurance and your bike won't be legal to drive on the roads.
thinkmassive 5y ago
> The penalties for having such a hack detected on your bike … is confiscation In what jurisdiction? Edit: just realized it’s your article and you’re in NL. Confiscation might be an issue there but it’s not universal by any stretch.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  It's treated the same way as a souped up scooter would be. Get caught and you are more than likely to lose it. The good news is that you can then try to buy it back at government auction ;)
wing-_-nuts 5y ago
>but they're all illegal and you are uninsured when using such a device. My bike is perfectly legal to ride. Plenty of people 'technically' break the law in small ways every day. If your bike looks like a normal bike, and you're not doing outlandish speeds, I'm not sure it matters whether or not your bike is 'technically legal'.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Right up to the point when you cause and accident, it turns out that you are not insured and you are now in debt for the rest of your life. This is not a small matter.
  - wing-_-nuts 5y ago
    How does someone on a bike 'cause an accident'? How exactly is a cop going to know that you've modified your bike? They aren't tour de france officials. I'd be fine taking my chances. You seem to have a very legalistic outlook that doesn't translate to reality.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      The police here is pretty good at accident mechanics, the insurance will insist and if your bike has been modded you are in pretty hot water. My 'legalistic outlook' is mostly informed by the local news. But don't take my word for it, have a read: https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&q=opgevoerde+e-bike+onverzekerd https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&q=opgevoerde+e-bike...
bob29 5y ago
Another clueless American ebiker question about Europeon law. Is the article's bike legal? Individual can self build a high energy battery with parts and tools from online sellers putting an alibaba balance charger in parallel with the original BMS, no external testing review or inspection. And the authorities/insurance don't care about this customization vs the factory model they presumably inspected before certifying. Alternatively if you software configure a motor controller so that it sends motor current from a throttle instead of a torque sensor in the pedals, you'll be busted?