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I believe that many people will do what I did - install a charger at home. Charge your car while you sleep. No inconvenience, no hidden fees. Which means tha

by btilly 5y ago

I believe that many people will do what I did - install a charger at home. Charge your car while you sleep. No inconvenience, no hidden fees. Which means that the charging industry needs to only serve a fraction of what gas stations currently do. The only time that I care about superchargers is on a long trip. Incidentally OCPP is a total mess. I looked at what it takes to implement it a couple of years ago. What they really need are some reference implementations. Because as it stands you just code something up according to the (rather complicated) spec, and then have to deal with interoperating with everyone who read the spec differently. Guess how well that works?

BiteCode_dev 5y ago
It will also make solar even more attractive.
- simiones 5y ago
  Solar is not great for over-night charging...
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    Most people buy solar panels with energy storage.
    - dmitrygr 5y ago
      I am getting solar with battery (in Texas) and I asked all the companies I spoke to when collecting estimates. They said < 10% do. Solar saves you money on the electrical bill and has a chance of breaking even over time. Storage doesn't nearly as much since most people sleep a large portion of the night. Additionally, I suspect you severely underestimate the additional cost ($10k in hardware alone [2], and that is before you get to permits and labor) and severely overestimate the average American family's ability to pay it [1]. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=median+income+usa https://www.google.com/search?q=median+income+usa [2] https://www.buildwithrise.com/stories/tesla-powerwall2-basics https://www.buildwithrise.com/stories/tesla-powerwall2-basic...
    - GuB-42 5y ago
      One of the big things of the "green" crowd is that EV batteries can be used as storage for absorbing excess solar/wind energy, and maybe even put it back into the grid. Basically the opposite of your suggestion. For solar, cars should be charged around noon. Overnight charging is ideal if we go nuclear. Now I am talking about global scale, on an individual scale, everyone does what's best for them. For example, if you have net metering, having solar panels and charging overnight makes a lot of sense. Having batteries at home and emptying your home battery into your car battery during the night can also make sense depending on what kind of contract you have with you utilities and the kind of subsidies you can pretend to. Anyways, most of the people I know (not in the US) with solar panels don't have energy storage, because they have net metering, or even better, they sometimes sell for more than they buy per kWh.
cityofdelusion 5y ago
Is installing a charger economical for the average car buyer? I assume a high amp circuit install from an electrician is something like saving up another down payment. Maybe it can be rolled into the 84 month auto loans or whatever crazy length they are up to now.
- celticninja 5y ago
  Sometimes they are subsidies available to install them.
- jakogut 5y ago
  Most municipalities allow homeowners to do their own electrical work, assuming you apply for the appropriate permits and have your work inspected. If you already have a subpanel in your garage, it's not complicated to add a 240V 50A receptacle. Depending on the scope of the work, it can be done for less than a couple hundred bucks in materials.
- ip26 5y ago
  The everyman solution may turn out to be something like 240V 20A on an existing wire run. Just a new breaker & outlet, $20 in parts and 15 minutes labor? 11kW is nice, but NEMA 6-20 is good for 4kW or ~14 miles per hour, or 120-150 miles per night.
  - p1mrx 5y ago
    That's a good idea in theory, but you'd have to block off all the 120V outlets on the same circuit. If the existing breaker is 15A, you need a NEMA 6-15, which is 2.9 kW.
- tapoxi 5y ago
  It cost me about $500 for an electrician to run a 30 amp circuit to my garage, and $200 for a NEMA 14-30 compatible EVSE.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 5y ago
simiones 5y ago
There are many, MANY people living in old high-rises. This is a complex infrastructure problem however you look at it. Not to mention the potential safety risks, depending on exactly how much power the car needs to draw to fully charge in ~8 hours.
- tapoxi 5y ago
  Most people aren't fully charging their car every day. I have a 220v 24 amp plug for my car and it charges ~22 MPH, which typically covers my driving for the day. High rises need maybe a dozen of these chargers with load sharing so multiple cars can be on the same circuit.
eldaisfish 5y ago
>I believe that many people will do what I did - install a charger at home This assumes: 1. You have a home and park in the exact same spot every day, and the option to install a charger 2. Your home's electrical network is able to handle the extra power from charging an EV 3. Your driving habits do not involve long distances or refuelling/recharging.
josephcsible 5y ago
This article is about DC fast charging, which is absolutely critical for long trips, and not supposed to be used at all for local travel. There's basically zero overlap between use cases for them and for home chargers. Having a home charger doesn't help one bit when you're 300 miles away from home and now need to charge back up to drive 300 more miles.
verelo 5y ago
Timely: I sit here waiting for an electrician to turn up to install power on our 50 acre property 3 hours north of Toronto. We have a 14-30 outlet in our house in the city, we use that to get around 35-40km/hr of charge in our driveway. That cost around $1500 (CAD) to install. Up here, it's a different story. Our power comes in via the lake. It then goes to a transformer, it then goes to our metre which has a 200amp breaker on it. From there, it currently goes into the house. In a few hours, it'll split off at the meter and head up a 150m hill where we'll be installing a 100amp outdoor panel with a 14-50 outdoor outlet. In the winter we cannot drive down this hill, so we need to charge up the top. It's a lot of work to do this, total cost is going to be around 8-9k, but from my perspective, it's an infrastructure cost and no matter what this makes us less dependant on fossil fuels and more independent. Our nearest gas station is around 20 minutes away, so we often have concerns about forgetting to gas up and then maybe struggling to get back to the gas station. While it's never happened, i love being able to charge at home.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  $1500 ($1200 USD) seems pretty extreme to install a dryer plug. Were there hidden challenges?
  - verelo 5y ago
    Yeah, mostly the inflation of living in toronto.

by btilly 5y ago

BiteCode_dev 5y ago

It will also make solar even more attractive.

simiones 5y ago
Solar is not great for over-night charging...
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  Most people buy solar panels with energy storage.
  - dmitrygr 5y ago
    I am getting solar with battery (in Texas) and I asked all the companies I spoke to when collecting estimates. They said < 10% do. Solar saves you money on the electrical bill and has a chance of breaking even over time. Storage doesn't nearly as much since most people sleep a large portion of the night. Additionally, I suspect you severely underestimate the additional cost ($10k in hardware alone [2], and that is before you get to permits and labor) and severely overestimate the average American family's ability to pay it [1]. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=median+income+usa https://www.google.com/search?q=median+income+usa [2] https://www.buildwithrise.com/stories/tesla-powerwall2-basics https://www.buildwithrise.com/stories/tesla-powerwall2-basic...
  - GuB-42 5y ago
    One of the big things of the "green" crowd is that EV batteries can be used as storage for absorbing excess solar/wind energy, and maybe even put it back into the grid. Basically the opposite of your suggestion. For solar, cars should be charged around noon. Overnight charging is ideal if we go nuclear. Now I am talking about global scale, on an individual scale, everyone does what's best for them. For example, if you have net metering, having solar panels and charging overnight makes a lot of sense. Having batteries at home and emptying your home battery into your car battery during the night can also make sense depending on what kind of contract you have with you utilities and the kind of subsidies you can pretend to. Anyways, most of the people I know (not in the US) with solar panels don't have energy storage, because they have net metering, or even better, they sometimes sell for more than they buy per kWh.

cityofdelusion 5y ago

Is installing a charger economical for the average car buyer? I assume a high amp circuit install from an electrician is something like saving up another down payment. Maybe it can be rolled into the 84 month auto loans or whatever crazy length they are up to now.

celticninja 5y ago
Sometimes they are subsidies available to install them.
jakogut 5y ago
Most municipalities allow homeowners to do their own electrical work, assuming you apply for the appropriate permits and have your work inspected. If you already have a subpanel in your garage, it's not complicated to add a 240V 50A receptacle. Depending on the scope of the work, it can be done for less than a couple hundred bucks in materials.
ip26 5y ago
The everyman solution may turn out to be something like 240V 20A on an existing wire run. Just a new breaker & outlet, $20 in parts and 15 minutes labor? 11kW is nice, but NEMA 6-20 is good for 4kW or ~14 miles per hour, or 120-150 miles per night.
- p1mrx 5y ago
  That's a good idea in theory, but you'd have to block off all the 120V outlets on the same circuit. If the existing breaker is 15A, you need a NEMA 6-15, which is 2.9 kW.
tapoxi 5y ago
It cost me about $500 for an electrician to run a 30 amp circuit to my garage, and $200 for a NEMA 14-30 compatible EVSE.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
5y ago

simiones 5y ago

There are many, MANY people living in old high-rises. This is a complex infrastructure problem however you look at it. Not to mention the potential safety risks, depending on exactly how much power the car needs to draw to fully charge in ~8 hours.

tapoxi 5y ago
Most people aren't fully charging their car every day. I have a 220v 24 amp plug for my car and it charges ~22 MPH, which typically covers my driving for the day. High rises need maybe a dozen of these chargers with load sharing so multiple cars can be on the same circuit.

eldaisfish 5y ago

>I believe that many people will do what I did - install a charger at home This assumes: 1. You have a home and park in the exact same spot every day, and the option to install a charger 2. Your home's electrical network is able to handle the extra power from charging an EV 3. Your driving habits do not involve long distances or refuelling/recharging.

josephcsible 5y ago

This article is about DC fast charging, which is absolutely critical for long trips, and not supposed to be used at all for local travel. There's basically zero overlap between use cases for them and for home chargers. Having a home charger doesn't help one bit when you're 300 miles away from home and now need to charge back up to drive 300 more miles.

verelo 5y ago

Timely: I sit here waiting for an electrician to turn up to install power on our 50 acre property 3 hours north of Toronto. We have a 14-30 outlet in our house in the city, we use that to get around 35-40km/hr of charge in our driveway. That cost around $1500 (CAD) to install. Up here, it's a different story. Our power comes in via the lake. It then goes to a transformer, it then goes to our metre which has a 200amp breaker on it. From there, it currently goes into the house. In a few hours, it'll split off at the meter and head up a 150m hill where we'll be installing a 100amp outdoor panel with a 14-50 outdoor outlet. In the winter we cannot drive down this hill, so we need to charge up the top. It's a lot of work to do this, total cost is going to be around 8-9k, but from my perspective, it's an infrastructure cost and no matter what this makes us less dependant on fossil fuels and more independent. Our nearest gas station is around 20 minutes away, so we often have concerns about forgetting to gas up and then maybe struggling to get back to the gas station. While it's never happened, i love being able to charge at home.

jeffbee 5y ago
$1500 ($1200 USD) seems pretty extreme to install a dryer plug. Were there hidden challenges?
- verelo 5y ago
  Yeah, mostly the inflation of living in toronto.