10 ms·

Microsoft to Block Windows 11 Browser Workarounds

110 points by theodorejb 5y ago

samstave 5y ago
I am on Windows 11 - first time with W11 and been running it for a week++; I looked this morning when my machine was running slow, to try and see what it was, my uptime was 2D6H+ so I rebooted and that didnt solve it. I have the newest flagship laptop from HP Omen RTX3070 and Ryzen 58000 or something... I am only using my browser, FF, and its still acting weird slow.. Any thoughts?
- GrumpyNl 5y ago
  Ctr-alt-delete/ task manager, will show you what is using the most cpu.
  - binarycrusader 5y ago
    Ctrl+Shift+Esc is the superior shortcut in my opinion ;)
    - samstave 5y ago
      same, and I have done all this -- the issue is my box is subjectively and obviously lagging, but perfmon shows like zero util... Its just weird.
      - noxer 5y ago
        Move any windows around if it is not instant, save everything (just in case) and kill dwm.exe (DWM will restarts on its own) Seems to be a bug that it slowly gets slower and slower especially if many windows are open.
        samstave 5y ago
        I couldnt find that process in W11... however - I did a hard reboot and it came back to normal, but first I went in and turned off a lot of autostart cruft - but after doing that I rebooted and it still didnt fix it until the hard reset.
        noxer 5y ago
        Its name is simply "Desktop Window Manager" but the process is dwm.exe the file is under \Windows\system32\dwm.exe Its defensively there without it there would be no desktop environment visible.
        samstave 5y ago
        Ah - I am an ideout. I was looking for "DWM.EXE" in Here: https://i.imgur.com/qz53ome.png https://i.imgur.com/qz53ome.png And as you can see, I didnt equate the two. --- An aside: this really reveals how much knowledge in one's field disappears over the years... I have been a windows admin and everything since windows 3.1....... etc. But when youre doing other things years after that, on the 'meta' levels, if you will.... christ - I used to bullseye Exchange DB Corruption in my IBM T42 back home. They're not much bigger than a couple hundred gigs.
- hmrr 5y ago
  I get that on my fairly high end Windows 10 laptop. I resort to rebooting it nightly. Windows Defender does like to go completely nuts occasionally as well. I've got to complain though. I spend more time pissing around working around issues than doing anything productive on this infernal pile of dung.
  - ziml77 5y ago
    Windows Defender is one of the worst AV when it comes to performance impact. I would rather have no AV than deal with its overhead (I am running third-party AV software though).
    - hmrr 5y ago
      Annoying because it used to be pretty good.
- xdfgh1112 5y ago
  I dual boot with manjaro and Windows is significantly slower. It's probably just Windows.
- Destitute 5y ago
  I think after about a week, the Windows Search Index goes to work. I only noticed it because it caused my mouse cursor to go from pointer to hourglass every 2 seconds. Went on for about 3 or 4 days.
neogodless 5y ago
I'm not using Windows 11 yet. Using dual monitors, I prefer to have my task bars on the inside edges of those monitors. I do not like to group multiple open windows in a single task bar entry. These are not huge things, but then again, all I really want from my operating system UI is the ability to put things where I want them. Windows 11 decreased quite a few user preference/customization options. It's clearly not their objective to do what the user wants, but whatever Microsoft wants (and this is/was one of the few core differentiators for me between Microsoft and Apple, and it is shrinking rapidly EDIT: I will not change my comment here but I think my point is more the overall ecosystem/buy-in; i.e. requiring XCode to write for iOS, needing iOS to use a Watch, being unable to choose the browser/engine on iOS, and largely being unable to customize/upgrade Mac hardware). This latest decision is atrocious, but also inline with previous decisions they've made regarding Windows 11. User be warned.
- handrous 5y ago
  Win10's supported until at least 2025. Not sure why anyone would jump on Win11, unless some software they're using requires it—which seems unlikely for some time, considering how long previous Windows version have retained good 3rd-party software support. > Windows 11 decreased quite a few user preference/customization options. It's clearly not their objective to do what the user wants, but whatever Microsoft wants (and this is/was one of the few core differentiators for me between Microsoft and Apple, and it is shrinking rapidly). Huh. I've used Mac for about a decade, after 15 years of Windows + Linux (and some DOS before that) and never felt that Windows is in any sense "freer" than OSX/MacOS, as far as configuration or what I can do with it.
  - neogodless 5y ago
    I have less experience (with MacOS), having only used it for perhaps a year for work, a couple years ago. But I do know that when it comes to the overall system, I have vastly more choices when it comes to hardware, being able to upgrade, being able to repair. There's just far less coupling between the operating system and the hardware than you find with Mac. So it certainly doesn't feel as free to me. But the UI might be similarly as open as Windows - I don't have sufficient experience to know.
Someone1234 5y ago
The lack of consumer protections in the US is problematic. When something is defined as a "monopoly" they can go in and do all kinds of pro-consumer stuff, but legally very few things are monopolies in the US (duopolies are more common). I wish stuff like this and iOS's ban on browser push notifications (because it competes with apps) was reviewed by a Federal consumer rights agency. What is frustrating that Edge-Chrome is actually a pretty good browser, Microsoft don't need to be doing this petty stuff to make it popular, yet here we are. Feels like the engineers at Microsoft just want to make cool shit but the management are stuck in this 1990s toxic mindset that keeps the company's image in the toilet (see also the Hot Reload controversy with the Visual Studio VP).
- nikau 5y ago
  I mean they are just mirroring apple with their forced browser engine on IOS...
- oneplane 5y ago
  I would like to know what is happening inside MS and what is actually behind this move. From the outside looking in we can speculate all kinds of abusive behaviour, especially with Microsoft's past in mind. But there is so little information... Say there was some QA team that found that some serious protected fallback mechanism was required to reduce support costs, that might be somewhat valid. But even then you'd expect to at least see some information appear about that, and that hasn't happened either. Heck, even security-wise they could come up with a story on how browser hijacking and protocol handler hijacking in windows is super bad and this was their only move (not true of course, plenty of other moves available) to mitigate it. But we get nothing, except broken behaviour and no real publication as to why. They can't throw it all on UX either, because if that's what they wanted they wouldn't be able to support an incompatible variety of PCs.
  - hmrr 5y ago
    If it's anything like when I've tried to get them to do anything about a support case, I suspect no one gives a fuck about the customers any more unless they're big spenders. Everyone else is seen as a revenue drain. To MSFT staff who I know hang around on here: prove me wrong by getting this turned around.
rackjack 5y ago
I previously stated: > Ah, the eternal cycle of: Microsoft does something bad, then people move to Linux, then they get dragged by Linux's rough new user experience, then they leave Linux, then things are fine for a while, then people mock Linux users for being paranoid, then Microsoft does something bad... here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28971110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28971110 Looks like we're going for another whirl around the cycle! Wheee!
- hmrr 5y ago
  Indeed. After 20 years of doing this I eventually learned to just pay out for whoever is currently hurting me the least, not the best option, because there isn't one. Apple is currently hurting me the least.
- gavinray 5y ago
  I upvoted you but I disagree with "Then they get dragged through Linux's rough new user experience." What distros do you feel have a poor experience for new Linux users? Arch, Gentoo, etc -- yeah those are terrible recommendations for "I want to use Linux for the first time." The first Linux distro I installed, I was 14 and had grown up on Windows XP + Vista. I went with Linux Mint and it felt like Windows (the UX). And that was a decade ago. Things were so much worse + more difficult on Linux then too. You have distros now like ElementaryOS that are made to mimic OSx, which is about as "I dunno computers" as you can get. And Ubuntu or any derivative like PopOS are also friendly and great first experiences. This is all opinion of course. ----- EDIT: For context/bias: posted this from Windows 11 Insider Switched to Windows ~1 year ago, and mostly regret it. I had (what I consider) a better experience on Ubuntu/Pop with Regolith as a tiling WM. YMMV, etc.
  - t-writescode 5y ago
    Linus Tech Tips, right now, is doing a series on switching fully to Linux and their WAN show from last week also talk about it. For the average consumer, Linux can be a very, very bad time, in a way Windows doesn’t seem to be. It can be very hard to imagine what kind of difficulties an average user has; but their videos give a small window into “no, it really isn’t ‘just that easy’ for everybody”. Commandline is hard.
remirk 5y ago
It is quite normal that things break on the Windows Insider Preview builds from time to time right? I'm pro Free Software, and therefore anti-Microsoft, but isn't it possible that, because of the changes to URL requests, they just haven't implemented support for having a difference standard browser? And that it may come in the upcoming weeks? This would be an all-time low for Microsoft. It would give them a lot of hate. I find that hard to believe to be honest.
- flyinghamster 5y ago
  I have no problems believing it. They've been quietly turning the screws for twenty years now (beginning with Windows XP activation). And whenever they're called out for it, they double down. Where else have I seen that strategy lately?
  - aksss 5y ago
    Canonical is next on list?
- nyuszika7h 5y ago
  No, this is not an Insider build issue. Blocking apps from sneakily changing the default browser without user content is one thing. But in Windows 11 RTM, they specifically went out of their way to make it a lot harder to change your default browser (or any default app), by forcing you do to it separately for each protocol and file extension. This led to non-malicious apps (e.g. Firefox) pursuing an alternative method to avoid users having to jump through hoops. It's quite interesting that if it's such a big security vulnerability Microsoft hasn't patched it in all these years, but when suddenly a browser maker wants to act in the users' best interests it's a "critical security vulnerability" that must be patched immediately. Yes, malware could theoretically abuse the same loophole. But they simply cannot lie to our faces and say this is being blocked only to prevent malware when they've intentionally made it harder for users themselves to change the setting as well.
- plorkyeran 5y ago
  The entire reason that the edge protocol exists in the first place is to bypass the user's desired default browser and open the URL in Edge instead. The fact that you could ever override that and make it open in your desired browser was pretty clearly a bug that accidentally made the feature less user hostile than intended.
shmerl 5y ago
Didn't they get blasted with anti-trust for their browser shenanigans? They feel too safe to do it again?
- pjmlp 5y ago
  The Internet gave the browser monopoly to Google, we are all ChromeOS developers now.
dehrmann 5y ago
I realize a side effect of this is it promotes Edge, but this feels like when websites would use JS to set that website to your homepage. Lots of bad actors use defaults in bad ways, so I'm fine with blocking them and having the OS manage this. My only concern is that this isn't a real problem now that most tasks are either idiosyncratic or in a browser. Maybe it was a fix needed in 2005.
- rideontime 5y ago
  It might not be clear - this is ignoring the user's choice and forcing Edge. This behavior is more like what you're describing than what it "fixed."
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    Ah, I missed that part. Yeah, not honoring the default browser for links opened by the OS is bad, but I also like that the OS manages defaults, not apps.
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      But it doesn't. And Windows 11 removed the default web browser setting. You have to change every protocol and file type separately now. Or have an app do it for you.
bun_at_work 5y ago
Why does Microsoft feel the need to force adoption of their browser? The browser comes installed, and is not the best browser (for everyone, at least). If a user wants to change the browser, why does that matter to MS so much? I'm genuinely curious because it seems like universally hated behavior by MS, but without any obvious benefit - so, what am I missing?
- dleslie 5y ago
  For the same reasons that Google made a browser in the first place: it's an enormous source of data to sell to advertisers.
  - rvnx 5y ago
    Well it's the ad space itself more precisely
  - bun_at_work 5y ago
    Does MS have an ad business? Also, as I understand it, Google made a browser to ensure competitors couldn't lock out users from Google's search at the browser level. While they get data they can use to improve advertising, it doesn't seem like the model is there for MS in the same way.
  - wongarsu 5y ago
    And just as all Google software is only accessible via a browser, Microsoft sees their future in Office 365 and related offerings, accessed from anywhere via a browser. Having a large browser market share is very much about securing their current and future business model, which is why both companies leverage their market position to force adoption of their respective browser.
- Jarwain 5y ago
  I feel like the article title is incredibly misleading. From what I understand, the user can change their default browser and use whatever they want. However, there are some windows/OS processes that may automatically launch Edge to view a specific webpage (some types of help file rendering? Not super clear What process trigger this). It is Not a blanket ban on non-edge browsers. Idk but I don't see it as being that big of a deal. It feels like like getting upset that my android phone uses Chrome for its WebView even though I have Brave set to my default. Sure it's annoying, but it's only being used to view some immediate page at which point I can exit and go back to my normal browsing.
jpalomaki 5y ago
What kind links are actually using this specific edge protocol? Edit: ” Seemingly normal-looking web links all over Windows 10, the Cortana digital assistant, and Microsoft apps like Mail, News, and Your Phone force-open in Microsoft Edge rather than in your system defined default web browser.” https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/edgedeflector-default-browser.html https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/edgedeflector-default-browser.ht...
FredPret 5y ago
Microsoft user to buy an M1 and never look back (me at least)
saxonww 5y ago
This is essentially the same behavior that led to their anti-trust case about 20 years ago. Which initially resulted in a finding of monopoly behavior and an order to split up, which as we know was not pursued. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
- r00fus 5y ago
  Microsoft has since significantly upped their political spend. Corporations see laws and bad publicity the same: they spend more money on it to work around them.
TheRealDunkirk 5y ago
This, combined with the recent cloning of Notion in Office365, should get them in hot water with the various regulatory bodies, but Microsoft learned how to grease palms back in the days of The Trial, so I'm sure their bases are covered.
noxer 5y ago
You cant install windows 11 on older hardware > turns out you can You cant update to windows 11 on older hardware > turns out you can You cant set a different default browser > turns out you can You cant set a different default browser (again) > turns out you can There is zero reason to believe that this will stay. Also its a dev build its not like this breaks anyone's workflow unless someone choose to work on a dev build and therefore accepted such and way worse hiccups.
- xg15 5y ago
  Absolutely worth it to read the linked post by the EdgeDeflect author too: https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/microsoft-edge-protocol-competition.html https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/microsoft-edge-protocol-competit... Even if you'll eventually somehow be able to circumvent this, I'm more baffled by the sheer amount of effort Microsoft puts into locking Edge as the (de-facto) default browser. The changes OP described show pretty clearly this is deliberate and not just for whatever technical reasons there could be. E.g. even if microsoft-edge:// links had some proprietary features that are required for OS integration - say, opening the page in a specific existing process or something - it makes no sense to rewrite ordinary https:// https:// urls into microsoft-edge:// urls - which Windows seems to be doing ("and links sent to the device from a paired Samsung or Android devices"). On the other hand, if they are so hell-bent on making Edge the default browser, why are they go through all the trouble with "link associations" and permit other browsers at all? By now it seems sort of odd they didn't simply hardwire https:// https:// to Edge directly. In any way, this smells like another antitrust lawsuit waiting around the corner.
  - noxer 5y ago
    Why bother? I already know no one will talk about this in 3 weeks because its resolved and wont ever affect anyone running the release versions anyway.
    - xg15 5y ago
      Will it? So far it seems they are pretty persistent in blocking all workarounds. I don't think the users will bother so much, but the other browser vendors might take issue.
neilv 5y ago
Is there any browser vendor that doesn't do things against its users' interests, for business reasons? I'm mostly using Firefox and Tor Browser, but there've been numerous disappointments, even there.
- xg15 5y ago
  That's not completely wrong unfortunately. By now, we have the OS, the browser and individual websites all using dark patterns to some extent, sometimes even against each other - e.g., by now, Windows will nag you if you try to switch to Chrome while Google will nag you if you don't switch to Chrome... Sometimes it feels like modern UI has become a battlefield between different companies with the only one losing with certainty being the user.
xnx 5y ago
I'm not a fan of how pushy Windows is with Edge, but I'm sympathetic. Microsoft looks at Chrome OS and Chrome, and iOS and Safari, and asks "Why can't we do that?".
- xg15 5y ago
  I think for the rest of us, the better question would be "why the fuck can Apple?"
dang 5y ago
Recent and related: You can no longer bypass microsoft-edge:// links using apps like EdgeDeflector - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29191244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29191244 - Nov 2021 (167 comments)

110 points by theodorejb 5y ago

I am on Windows 11 - first time with W11 and been running it for a week++; I looked this morning when my machine was running slow, to try and see what it was, my uptime was 2D6H+ so I rebooted and that didnt solve it. I have the newest flagship laptop from HP Omen RTX3070 and Ryzen 58000 or something... I am only using my browser, FF, and its still acting weird slow.. Any thoughts?

GrumpyNl 5y ago
Ctr-alt-delete/ task manager, will show you what is using the most cpu.
- binarycrusader 5y ago
  Ctrl+Shift+Esc is the superior shortcut in my opinion ;)
  - samstave 5y ago
    same, and I have done all this -- the issue is my box is subjectively and obviously lagging, but perfmon shows like zero util... Its just weird.
    - noxer 5y ago
      Move any windows around if it is not instant, save everything (just in case) and kill dwm.exe (DWM will restarts on its own) Seems to be a bug that it slowly gets slower and slower especially if many windows are open.
      - samstave 5y ago
        I couldnt find that process in W11... however - I did a hard reboot and it came back to normal, but first I went in and turned off a lot of autostart cruft - but after doing that I rebooted and it still didnt fix it until the hard reset.
        noxer 5y ago
        Its name is simply "Desktop Window Manager" but the process is dwm.exe the file is under \Windows\system32\dwm.exe Its defensively there without it there would be no desktop environment visible.
        samstave 5y ago
        Ah - I am an ideout. I was looking for "DWM.EXE" in Here: https://i.imgur.com/qz53ome.png https://i.imgur.com/qz53ome.png And as you can see, I didnt equate the two. --- An aside: this really reveals how much knowledge in one's field disappears over the years... I have been a windows admin and everything since windows 3.1....... etc. But when youre doing other things years after that, on the 'meta' levels, if you will.... christ - I used to bullseye Exchange DB Corruption in my IBM T42 back home. They're not much bigger than a couple hundred gigs.
hmrr 5y ago
I get that on my fairly high end Windows 10 laptop. I resort to rebooting it nightly. Windows Defender does like to go completely nuts occasionally as well. I've got to complain though. I spend more time pissing around working around issues than doing anything productive on this infernal pile of dung.
- ziml77 5y ago
  Windows Defender is one of the worst AV when it comes to performance impact. I would rather have no AV than deal with its overhead (I am running third-party AV software though).
  - hmrr 5y ago
    Annoying because it used to be pretty good.
xdfgh1112 5y ago
I dual boot with manjaro and Windows is significantly slower. It's probably just Windows.
Destitute 5y ago
I think after about a week, the Windows Search Index goes to work. I only noticed it because it caused my mouse cursor to go from pointer to hourglass every 2 seconds. Went on for about 3 or 4 days.

neogodless 5y ago

I'm not using Windows 11 yet. Using dual monitors, I prefer to have my task bars on the inside edges of those monitors. I do not like to group multiple open windows in a single task bar entry. These are not huge things, but then again, all I really want from my operating system UI is the ability to put things where I want them. Windows 11 decreased quite a few user preference/customization options. It's clearly not their objective to do what the user wants, but whatever Microsoft wants (and this is/was one of the few core differentiators for me between Microsoft and Apple, and it is shrinking rapidly EDIT: I will not change my comment here but I think my point is more the overall ecosystem/buy-in; i.e. requiring XCode to write for iOS, needing iOS to use a Watch, being unable to choose the browser/engine on iOS, and largely being unable to customize/upgrade Mac hardware). This latest decision is atrocious, but also inline with previous decisions they've made regarding Windows 11. User be warned.

handrous 5y ago
Win10's supported until at least 2025. Not sure why anyone would jump on Win11, unless some software they're using requires it—which seems unlikely for some time, considering how long previous Windows version have retained good 3rd-party software support. > Windows 11 decreased quite a few user preference/customization options. It's clearly not their objective to do what the user wants, but whatever Microsoft wants (and this is/was one of the few core differentiators for me between Microsoft and Apple, and it is shrinking rapidly). Huh. I've used Mac for about a decade, after 15 years of Windows + Linux (and some DOS before that) and never felt that Windows is in any sense "freer" than OSX/MacOS, as far as configuration or what I can do with it.
- neogodless 5y ago
  I have less experience (with MacOS), having only used it for perhaps a year for work, a couple years ago. But I do know that when it comes to the overall system, I have vastly more choices when it comes to hardware, being able to upgrade, being able to repair. There's just far less coupling between the operating system and the hardware than you find with Mac. So it certainly doesn't feel as free to me. But the UI might be similarly as open as Windows - I don't have sufficient experience to know.

Someone1234 5y ago

The lack of consumer protections in the US is problematic. When something is defined as a "monopoly" they can go in and do all kinds of pro-consumer stuff, but legally very few things are monopolies in the US (duopolies are more common). I wish stuff like this and iOS's ban on browser push notifications (because it competes with apps) was reviewed by a Federal consumer rights agency. What is frustrating that Edge-Chrome is actually a pretty good browser, Microsoft don't need to be doing this petty stuff to make it popular, yet here we are. Feels like the engineers at Microsoft just want to make cool shit but the management are stuck in this 1990s toxic mindset that keeps the company's image in the toilet (see also the Hot Reload controversy with the Visual Studio VP).

nikau 5y ago
I mean they are just mirroring apple with their forced browser engine on IOS...
oneplane 5y ago
I would like to know what is happening inside MS and what is actually behind this move. From the outside looking in we can speculate all kinds of abusive behaviour, especially with Microsoft's past in mind. But there is so little information... Say there was some QA team that found that some serious protected fallback mechanism was required to reduce support costs, that might be somewhat valid. But even then you'd expect to at least see some information appear about that, and that hasn't happened either. Heck, even security-wise they could come up with a story on how browser hijacking and protocol handler hijacking in windows is super bad and this was their only move (not true of course, plenty of other moves available) to mitigate it. But we get nothing, except broken behaviour and no real publication as to why. They can't throw it all on UX either, because if that's what they wanted they wouldn't be able to support an incompatible variety of PCs.
- hmrr 5y ago
  If it's anything like when I've tried to get them to do anything about a support case, I suspect no one gives a fuck about the customers any more unless they're big spenders. Everyone else is seen as a revenue drain. To MSFT staff who I know hang around on here: prove me wrong by getting this turned around.

rackjack 5y ago

I previously stated: > Ah, the eternal cycle of: Microsoft does something bad, then people move to Linux, then they get dragged by Linux's rough new user experience, then they leave Linux, then things are fine for a while, then people mock Linux users for being paranoid, then Microsoft does something bad... here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28971110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28971110 Looks like we're going for another whirl around the cycle! Wheee!

hmrr 5y ago
Indeed. After 20 years of doing this I eventually learned to just pay out for whoever is currently hurting me the least, not the best option, because there isn't one. Apple is currently hurting me the least.
gavinray 5y ago
I upvoted you but I disagree with "Then they get dragged through Linux's rough new user experience." What distros do you feel have a poor experience for new Linux users? Arch, Gentoo, etc -- yeah those are terrible recommendations for "I want to use Linux for the first time." The first Linux distro I installed, I was 14 and had grown up on Windows XP + Vista. I went with Linux Mint and it felt like Windows (the UX). And that was a decade ago. Things were so much worse + more difficult on Linux then too. You have distros now like ElementaryOS that are made to mimic OSx, which is about as "I dunno computers" as you can get. And Ubuntu or any derivative like PopOS are also friendly and great first experiences. This is all opinion of course. ----- EDIT: For context/bias: posted this from Windows 11 Insider Switched to Windows ~1 year ago, and mostly regret it. I had (what I consider) a better experience on Ubuntu/Pop with Regolith as a tiling WM. YMMV, etc.
- t-writescode 5y ago
  Linus Tech Tips, right now, is doing a series on switching fully to Linux and their WAN show from last week also talk about it. For the average consumer, Linux can be a very, very bad time, in a way Windows doesn’t seem to be. It can be very hard to imagine what kind of difficulties an average user has; but their videos give a small window into “no, it really isn’t ‘just that easy’ for everybody”. Commandline is hard.

remirk 5y ago

It is quite normal that things break on the Windows Insider Preview builds from time to time right? I'm pro Free Software, and therefore anti-Microsoft, but isn't it possible that, because of the changes to URL requests, they just haven't implemented support for having a difference standard browser? And that it may come in the upcoming weeks? This would be an all-time low for Microsoft. It would give them a lot of hate. I find that hard to believe to be honest.

flyinghamster 5y ago
I have no problems believing it. They've been quietly turning the screws for twenty years now (beginning with Windows XP activation). And whenever they're called out for it, they double down. Where else have I seen that strategy lately?
- aksss 5y ago
  Canonical is next on list?
nyuszika7h 5y ago
No, this is not an Insider build issue. Blocking apps from sneakily changing the default browser without user content is one thing. But in Windows 11 RTM, they specifically went out of their way to make it a lot harder to change your default browser (or any default app), by forcing you do to it separately for each protocol and file extension. This led to non-malicious apps (e.g. Firefox) pursuing an alternative method to avoid users having to jump through hoops. It's quite interesting that if it's such a big security vulnerability Microsoft hasn't patched it in all these years, but when suddenly a browser maker wants to act in the users' best interests it's a "critical security vulnerability" that must be patched immediately. Yes, malware could theoretically abuse the same loophole. But they simply cannot lie to our faces and say this is being blocked only to prevent malware when they've intentionally made it harder for users themselves to change the setting as well.
plorkyeran 5y ago
The entire reason that the edge protocol exists in the first place is to bypass the user's desired default browser and open the URL in Edge instead. The fact that you could ever override that and make it open in your desired browser was pretty clearly a bug that accidentally made the feature less user hostile than intended.

shmerl 5y ago

Didn't they get blasted with anti-trust for their browser shenanigans? They feel too safe to do it again?

pjmlp 5y ago
The Internet gave the browser monopoly to Google, we are all ChromeOS developers now.

dehrmann 5y ago

I realize a side effect of this is it promotes Edge, but this feels like when websites would use JS to set that website to your homepage. Lots of bad actors use defaults in bad ways, so I'm fine with blocking them and having the OS manage this. My only concern is that this isn't a real problem now that most tasks are either idiosyncratic or in a browser. Maybe it was a fix needed in 2005.

rideontime 5y ago
It might not be clear - this is ignoring the user's choice and forcing Edge. This behavior is more like what you're describing than what it "fixed."
- dehrmann 5y ago
  Ah, I missed that part. Yeah, not honoring the default browser for links opened by the OS is bad, but I also like that the OS manages defaults, not apps.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    But it doesn't. And Windows 11 removed the default web browser setting. You have to change every protocol and file type separately now. Or have an app do it for you.

bun_at_work 5y ago

Why does Microsoft feel the need to force adoption of their browser? The browser comes installed, and is not the best browser (for everyone, at least). If a user wants to change the browser, why does that matter to MS so much? I'm genuinely curious because it seems like universally hated behavior by MS, but without any obvious benefit - so, what am I missing?

dleslie 5y ago
For the same reasons that Google made a browser in the first place: it's an enormous source of data to sell to advertisers.
- rvnx 5y ago
  Well it's the ad space itself more precisely
- bun_at_work 5y ago
  Does MS have an ad business? Also, as I understand it, Google made a browser to ensure competitors couldn't lock out users from Google's search at the browser level. While they get data they can use to improve advertising, it doesn't seem like the model is there for MS in the same way.
- wongarsu 5y ago
  And just as all Google software is only accessible via a browser, Microsoft sees their future in Office 365 and related offerings, accessed from anywhere via a browser. Having a large browser market share is very much about securing their current and future business model, which is why both companies leverage their market position to force adoption of their respective browser.
Jarwain 5y ago
I feel like the article title is incredibly misleading. From what I understand, the user can change their default browser and use whatever they want. However, there are some windows/OS processes that may automatically launch Edge to view a specific webpage (some types of help file rendering? Not super clear What process trigger this). It is Not a blanket ban on non-edge browsers. Idk but I don't see it as being that big of a deal. It feels like like getting upset that my android phone uses Chrome for its WebView even though I have Brave set to my default. Sure it's annoying, but it's only being used to view some immediate page at which point I can exit and go back to my normal browsing.

jpalomaki 5y ago

What kind links are actually using this specific edge protocol? Edit: ” Seemingly normal-looking web links all over Windows 10, the Cortana digital assistant, and Microsoft apps like Mail, News, and Your Phone force-open in Microsoft Edge rather than in your system defined default web browser.” https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/edgedeflector-default-browser.html https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/edgedeflector-default-browser.ht...

FredPret 5y ago

Microsoft user to buy an M1 and never look back (me at least)

saxonww 5y ago

This is essentially the same behavior that led to their anti-trust case about 20 years ago. Which initially resulted in a finding of monopoly behavior and an order to split up, which as we know was not pursued. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

r00fus 5y ago
Microsoft has since significantly upped their political spend. Corporations see laws and bad publicity the same: they spend more money on it to work around them.

TheRealDunkirk 5y ago

This, combined with the recent cloning of Notion in Office365, should get them in hot water with the various regulatory bodies, but Microsoft learned how to grease palms back in the days of The Trial, so I'm sure their bases are covered.

noxer 5y ago

You cant install windows 11 on older hardware > turns out you can You cant update to windows 11 on older hardware > turns out you can You cant set a different default browser > turns out you can You cant set a different default browser (again) > turns out you can There is zero reason to believe that this will stay. Also its a dev build its not like this breaks anyone's workflow unless someone choose to work on a dev build and therefore accepted such and way worse hiccups.

xg15 5y ago
Absolutely worth it to read the linked post by the EdgeDeflect author too: https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/microsoft-edge-protocol-competition.html https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/microsoft-edge-protocol-competit... Even if you'll eventually somehow be able to circumvent this, I'm more baffled by the sheer amount of effort Microsoft puts into locking Edge as the (de-facto) default browser. The changes OP described show pretty clearly this is deliberate and not just for whatever technical reasons there could be. E.g. even if microsoft-edge:// links had some proprietary features that are required for OS integration - say, opening the page in a specific existing process or something - it makes no sense to rewrite ordinary https:// https:// urls into microsoft-edge:// urls - which Windows seems to be doing ("and links sent to the device from a paired Samsung or Android devices"). On the other hand, if they are so hell-bent on making Edge the default browser, why are they go through all the trouble with "link associations" and permit other browsers at all? By now it seems sort of odd they didn't simply hardwire https:// https:// to Edge directly. In any way, this smells like another antitrust lawsuit waiting around the corner.
- noxer 5y ago
  Why bother? I already know no one will talk about this in 3 weeks because its resolved and wont ever affect anyone running the release versions anyway.
  - xg15 5y ago
    Will it? So far it seems they are pretty persistent in blocking all workarounds. I don't think the users will bother so much, but the other browser vendors might take issue.

neilv 5y ago

Is there any browser vendor that doesn't do things against its users' interests, for business reasons? I'm mostly using Firefox and Tor Browser, but there've been numerous disappointments, even there.

xg15 5y ago
That's not completely wrong unfortunately. By now, we have the OS, the browser and individual websites all using dark patterns to some extent, sometimes even against each other - e.g., by now, Windows will nag you if you try to switch to Chrome while Google will nag you if you don't switch to Chrome... Sometimes it feels like modern UI has become a battlefield between different companies with the only one losing with certainty being the user.

xnx 5y ago

I'm not a fan of how pushy Windows is with Edge, but I'm sympathetic. Microsoft looks at Chrome OS and Chrome, and iOS and Safari, and asks "Why can't we do that?".

xg15 5y ago
I think for the rest of us, the better question would be "why the fuck can Apple?"

dang 5y ago

Recent and related: You can no longer bypass microsoft-edge:// links using apps like EdgeDeflector - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29191244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29191244 - Nov 2021 (167 comments)