7 ms·

There’s a queue coming for Tesla charging

20 points by samizdis 5y ago

westondeboer 5y ago
We just did a little 5 hour road trip this weekend to test the tesla charging. And it was awesome. What I don't understand is how these small towns are not fighting for one of these chargers to be installed in there parking lots. Every one of these chargers had people in the restaurants, or stores near these chargers. If I lived in one of these towns I would setup taco trucks right next to one of these chargers.
samstave 5y ago
I always thought it would be cool if they did in-road charging, like a slot car. Or, at least have this feature at the charging stations - instead aof a group of ~8 pods with typical cable connection trope like that of a gas-line seems like it could have been improved upon? How complex are the actual charging "pumps"? Finally, It would be really interesting if some scrappy engineer in a city with overhead MUNI power lines to add a pole to a tesla to slurp power off those line (although clearly they would be fined - but it would be a cool PoC-hack.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  > How complex are the actual charging "pumps"? 150 kW per supercharger. So your typical 8-pod supercharger needs to supply 1.2 MW, or roughly the same amount of power as 1000-typical US homes. EDIT: And now to build a thick enough cable that is weather-proofed and idiot-proof, so that no one kills themselves touching that wire... in all weather conditions (hot, cold, rain, snow, sleet), and... yeah... its actually kinda scary if you think about it. ------------ Yeah, in terms of "MW of fuel delivered per second", a gas station pumping gasoline is surprisingly efficient and simple. Doing it purely electrically, even at a much slower rate (30 minute charge times) is surprisingly complex.
  - optimuspaul 5y ago
    Wow! 150kW. The chargers I use now are 7kW max. I wonder what kind of stress that puts on the batteries.
    - Karunamon 5y ago
      It's definitely harder on the batteries than regular L1/L2 charging, but it looks like maybe a low single digit difference in capacity after 50K miles, at least per https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/01/f19/dcfc_study_fs_50k.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/01/f19/dcfc_stu...
  - zsmi 5y ago
    I think most stalls are actually shared so when your neighboring stall is occupied you'll get less power. Stations are more crowded these days so it's getting common. Anyway, it doesn't actually diminish your argument, especially as 16-pod+ supercharging stations exist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger "When both pairs of Tesla Supercharger station stalls (A and B) are occupied, they share the available power of up to 150 kW."
- jcims 5y ago
  I've often wondered how effective a large induction loop would be in tapping power off of transmisison lines.
  - namibj 5y ago
    The transmission lines are designed to minimize the H-field radiation, so they're actively working against you trying to couple via the H-field.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    Apparently people just do not understand how much power a car uses.
    - jcims 5y ago
      Bro you just need some solar panels on top all this charging stuff is for the birds.
- totoglazer 5y ago
  I swear I’ve seen photos of an EV that was hacked that way like 5 years ago. Maybe an early model S?
  - closeparen 5y ago
    It was a Prius. https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power-lines-the-bold-italic-san-francisco-80cdbe55d68e https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power...
    - samstave 5y ago
      Fantastic! Thanks! I am surprised there hasnt been more power-pirates in SF - like to power your home server rack... But if the FN buses cant eat 400A all the time - Maybe start Muni-Hosting ;-) I wonder what Muni's power bill is (and their rate)
    - totoglazer 5y ago
      Thank you!
- samizdis 5y ago
  > I always thought it would be cool if they did in-road charging, like a slot car. There do seem to be people working towards it, or at least giving it some serious thought [1], and there's at least one proposed pilot/experimental scheme, such as [2] in Indiana. [1] https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2021/04/research-paves-way-wireless-charging-electric-vehicles https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2021/04/research-paves-way-... [2] https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132979_wireless-ev-charging-via-highway-pavement-to-be-tested-in-indiana https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132979_wireless-ev-cha...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- zz865 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27100u7IcII https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27100u7IcII like this for trucks in Sweden?
waffletower 5y ago
I think this is a perfect scenario for some subsidized Federal infrastructure spending. I revel in the knee jerk bristling conservatives experienced as they read my first sentence. Much like turnpike service centers that you see in the East, EV service centers could be built along the interstates and could offer charging, basic vehicle services, restrooms, and even convenience stores. They could be expansions upon existing rest areas, and would be open for all vehicles. Would be nice if Tesla didn't have to do it all themselves, since they currently basically plop chargers into lots and provide zero services. It is luck of the draw whether you can actually use a bathroom or wash your windshield while charging your Tesla.
- coryrc 5y ago
  Near Seattle, the government can't even keep normal rest stops open. In addition, we already have that. I've stopped in DuPont, WA for charge and teriyaki. The charger was subsidized.
  - waffletower 5y ago
    In nearby Oregon we don't have that. Except for the part about the government having difficulty keeping rest stations open. We have that.
wantsanagent 5y ago
The focus on profitability seems strange given that gas stations aren't profitable from gas sales either. Gas stations make their money off of their convenience items. You buy a franchise not to sell gas, but to lure customers to your convenience store. Until charging times come down significantly, cafes and restaurants seem like natural partners for charging parks.
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  > ...cafes and restaurants seem like natural partners for charging parks. $30 Avocado toast and $15 lattes.
- pkulak 5y ago
  Is that really true? The gas stations around me (in the middle of a city) are generally pretty empty inside, but full of cars filling up. They also sell gas for a few cents higher. It seems like it's a mix of the two strategies.
  - secabeen 5y ago
    That's my understanding, yes. The profit margins on the convenience items are just so much higher. 20oz bottle of soda? $2. Wholesale price, probably under $0.50.
  - optimuspaul 5y ago
    On average it isn't true. The average profit margin is 1.4% for gas stations in the US. Clearly the majority are not making much money on gas. Presumably that low average could mean for many gas is a loss leader.
    - SilasX 5y ago
      Which is greater than zero, contra the top-level comment.
      - wutangson1 5y ago
btilly 5y ago
I believe that many people will do what I did - install a charger at home. Charge your car while you sleep. No inconvenience, no hidden fees. Which means that the charging industry needs to only serve a fraction of what gas stations currently do. The only time that I care about superchargers is on a long trip. Incidentally OCPP is a total mess. I looked at what it takes to implement it a couple of years ago. What they really need are some reference implementations. Because as it stands you just code something up according to the (rather complicated) spec, and then have to deal with interoperating with everyone who read the spec differently. Guess how well that works?
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  It will also make solar even more attractive.
  - simiones 5y ago
    Solar is not great for over-night charging...
    - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
      Most people buy solar panels with energy storage.
      - dmitrygr 5y ago
        I am getting solar with battery (in Texas) and I asked all the companies I spoke to when collecting estimates. They said < 10% do. Solar saves you money on the electrical bill and has a chance of breaking even over time. Storage doesn't nearly as much since most people sleep a large portion of the night. Additionally, I suspect you severely underestimate the additional cost ($10k in hardware alone [2], and that is before you get to permits and labor) and severely overestimate the average American family's ability to pay it [1]. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=median+income+usa https://www.google.com/search?q=median+income+usa [2] https://www.buildwithrise.com/stories/tesla-powerwall2-basics https://www.buildwithrise.com/stories/tesla-powerwall2-basic...
ragnot 5y ago
Sidenote: If there's one thing I hate, it's when the headline tells me if "It's OK". It just screams soft propaganda to me.
- paganel 5y ago
  Glad I wasn't the only one bothered by that, it must be a recent(-ish) trend, I keep reading it more and more lately.
- throwaway2077 5y ago
  and that's a good thing, here's why
- samizdis 5y ago
  It grated on me, too, but I left the headline as it was out of some misplaced respect for Spectrum (which seems to have become more clickbaity since its redesign of a few months ago). However, given your comment and others supporting it, I've removed the offending bit.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't pick the most provocative thing in a headline or article and then copy it into the threads to complain about it. The most provocative thing is nearly always something shallow and barely (if at all) related. This leads to shallow/indignant discussions, which are the opposite of what we're going for here. It's particularly important because shallow/indignant comments tend to get a lot of upvotes (this is the main weakness of the upvoting system), which means that they end up at the top of threads, choking out more interesting discussion. That's where this one was when I saw it; I've marked it off topic now. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22most%20provocative%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
debacle 5y ago
It will be "OK" if we redefine what it means to be an American consumer. Right now, there are still serious issues to EV charging at range. When we have an EV system that can power our trucking system in any serious fashion, the consumer transportation question will seem minimal and facile.
protomyth 5y ago
At some point all of these chargers are going to have to start charging an equivalent to the gas tax to maintain the roads. EVs are heavier than their ICE equivalent. I know some politicians want a mileage fee paid at registration but that is a privacy issue and problematic for low income folks.
- notreallyserio 5y ago
  If we double the weight of all passenger vehicles, how would the damage they cause compare to large trucks? IIRC the ratio is currently 1:5000 to 1:10000 but trucks don't pay thousands of times more for registration or tax on fuel.
  - 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
    I would guess that large trucks don’t drive on a large fraction of the roads, mostly staying limited to highways and stuff like that.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - protomyth 5y ago
    No they don't, but they do pay a use tax on the fuel. Electrics aren't paying anything other than registration.
    - notreallyserio 5y ago
      Totally. I'm just wondering if, given we know they don't currently assign costs appropriately, would they start when electric vehicles become the norm? If not, how far off would they be compared to now?
- ska 5y ago
  While were at it, I've read heavy transport doesn't pay anything like proportional to wear and tear; if so that would seem to be more important to fix, at least at first glance.
draw_down 5y ago
Yeah, no thanks. They need to figure out this kind of table-stakes stuff before I have any interest in this. If the gas station is too busy I go to the next one down the street. And I use the same credit card at all of them.
londons_explore 5y ago
The key issue is chargers are too expensive. A home charger usually consists of a $5 relay, a $1 earth fault clamp and a $1 microcontroller. Yet somehow a home EV charger is $300+! Home chargers could easily be designed to just plug into regular 30 amp 6.6 kilowatt tumble dryer outlets, for no additional cost. Fast chargers are also too expensive. The main expense is high power switching electronics, but the core MOSFET's and inductors are super cheap. For example this[1] part can switch about 70 kilowatts for just $15. A basic 3 phase -> DC charger can be built with one of those, a few capacitors, an inductor, 7 power diodes, fan, heatsink and a microcontroller. So why do commercial DC fast chargers only start at $25k?? [1]: https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Infineon-Technologies/IPZA65R018CFD7XKSA1 https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Infineon-Technologies...
- dmitrygr 5y ago
  I'd guess at least partially for the same reason that a Cessna 172 costs $80k in parts and retails for $400k. A large part of the sale price goes to a bank account titled "in case of lawsuit." Someone needs to pay the lawyers when you get sued for a fire, etc...
- jeffbee 5y ago
  Just the cord for a 30-amp EVSE costs $200, so I think you are slightly underestimating the bill of materials. The pricing is fairly consistent with outdoor-rated generator cords, which are $2.50/foot for 10/4.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    so a 10 foot cord should be $25... The wholesale cost of the copper for 10 feet @30 amps is $9. The rest is plastic, manufacturing & logistics costs.
    - jeffbee 5y ago
      I still doubt your analysis, however if you think you have identified an interchangeable consumer product with growing demand, for which the incumbent sellers have excessive margins, the rational thing for you to do is enter that business.
josephcsible 5y ago
I don't care that I'll be competing for more cars at Superchargers. What I care about is their charging speeds. I'd be perfectly fine waiting for a Porsche Taycan to charge at 270kW, but I'd be really really annoyed waiting for a Chevy Bolt to charge at 50kW.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  Here's a Taycan charging at 134 kW on a Tesla charger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0F42jY3dD8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0F42jY3dD8 The charger claims to be rated for 1000 volts but either the Taycan isn't requesting enough volts or the charger isn't delivering them.
ajross 5y ago
I hate to say it, but as a Tesla owner there's a deep current of concern trolling pervading this genre. People who didn't buy Teslas and who don't use superchargers have, well, way too much to say about what Tesla "should" do with its superchargers and how it will effect those people who don't use them and didn't buy a compatible product. I mean, guys... That said: I agree that open access to chargers is a good thing for everyone and that it accelerates the day when these things are as routine as gas stations. But good grief everyone, don't pretend to be dispassionate observers, you just want access to superchargers.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > didn't buy a compatible product ... But good grief everyone, don't pretend to be dispassionate observers, you just want access to superchargers. No, what I want is for EV infrastructure to have the same utility as ICE infrastructure. I can fuel my ICE vehicle at any fueling station, no matter the brand of the station or the brand of the car. Similarly, I should be able to charge my EV at any charging station. Tesla switched to CCS in Europe a few years ago and they've just recently opened an initial 10 charging sites in the Netherlands to all EVs. That's the benefit of a common standard. All other manufacturers have switched to CCS in North America. Tesla is the last remaining holdout. Balkanized charging infrastructure is just plain dumb and no good for anyone. Incompatible plugs and brand exclusive chargers just make EVs worse.
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
Even in a hypothetical world where there are as many electric stations as gas stations, the wait seems like a real pain point. I won’t buy an EV until I live somewhere I can charge it at home, and even then I’d rather take a gas car on road trips. What’s that telephone operator math problem about how adding just a few more incoming to the queue increases average wait times astronomically or something?

20 points by samizdis 5y ago

We just did a little 5 hour road trip this weekend to test the tesla charging. And it was awesome. What I don't understand is how these small towns are not fighting for one of these chargers to be installed in there parking lots. Every one of these chargers had people in the restaurants, or stores near these chargers. If I lived in one of these towns I would setup taco trucks right next to one of these chargers.

samstave 5y ago

I always thought it would be cool if they did in-road charging, like a slot car. Or, at least have this feature at the charging stations - instead aof a group of ~8 pods with typical cable connection trope like that of a gas-line seems like it could have been improved upon? How complex are the actual charging "pumps"? Finally, It would be really interesting if some scrappy engineer in a city with overhead MUNI power lines to add a pole to a tesla to slurp power off those line (although clearly they would be fined - but it would be a cool PoC-hack.

dragontamer 5y ago
> How complex are the actual charging "pumps"? 150 kW per supercharger. So your typical 8-pod supercharger needs to supply 1.2 MW, or roughly the same amount of power as 1000-typical US homes. EDIT: And now to build a thick enough cable that is weather-proofed and idiot-proof, so that no one kills themselves touching that wire... in all weather conditions (hot, cold, rain, snow, sleet), and... yeah... its actually kinda scary if you think about it. ------------ Yeah, in terms of "MW of fuel delivered per second", a gas station pumping gasoline is surprisingly efficient and simple. Doing it purely electrically, even at a much slower rate (30 minute charge times) is surprisingly complex.
- optimuspaul 5y ago
  Wow! 150kW. The chargers I use now are 7kW max. I wonder what kind of stress that puts on the batteries.
  - Karunamon 5y ago
    It's definitely harder on the batteries than regular L1/L2 charging, but it looks like maybe a low single digit difference in capacity after 50K miles, at least per https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/01/f19/dcfc_study_fs_50k.pdf https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/01/f19/dcfc_stu...
- zsmi 5y ago
  I think most stalls are actually shared so when your neighboring stall is occupied you'll get less power. Stations are more crowded these days so it's getting common. Anyway, it doesn't actually diminish your argument, especially as 16-pod+ supercharging stations exist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger "When both pairs of Tesla Supercharger station stalls (A and B) are occupied, they share the available power of up to 150 kW."
jcims 5y ago
I've often wondered how effective a large induction loop would be in tapping power off of transmisison lines.
- namibj 5y ago
  The transmission lines are designed to minimize the H-field radiation, so they're actively working against you trying to couple via the H-field.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  Apparently people just do not understand how much power a car uses.
  - jcims 5y ago
    Bro you just need some solar panels on top all this charging stuff is for the birds.
totoglazer 5y ago
I swear I’ve seen photos of an EV that was hacked that way like 5 years ago. Maybe an early model S?
- closeparen 5y ago
  It was a Prius. https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power-lines-the-bold-italic-san-francisco-80cdbe55d68e https://thebolditalic.com/hacked-prius-running-on-muni-power...
  - samstave 5y ago
    Fantastic! Thanks! I am surprised there hasnt been more power-pirates in SF - like to power your home server rack... But if the FN buses cant eat 400A all the time - Maybe start Muni-Hosting ;-) I wonder what Muni's power bill is (and their rate)
  - totoglazer 5y ago
    Thank you!
samizdis 5y ago
> I always thought it would be cool if they did in-road charging, like a slot car. There do seem to be people working towards it, or at least giving it some serious thought [1], and there's at least one proposed pilot/experimental scheme, such as [2] in Indiana. [1] https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2021/04/research-paves-way-wireless-charging-electric-vehicles https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2021/04/research-paves-way-... [2] https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132979_wireless-ev-charging-via-highway-pavement-to-be-tested-in-indiana https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132979_wireless-ev-cha...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
zz865 5y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27100u7IcII https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27100u7IcII like this for trucks in Sweden?

waffletower 5y ago

I think this is a perfect scenario for some subsidized Federal infrastructure spending. I revel in the knee jerk bristling conservatives experienced as they read my first sentence. Much like turnpike service centers that you see in the East, EV service centers could be built along the interstates and could offer charging, basic vehicle services, restrooms, and even convenience stores. They could be expansions upon existing rest areas, and would be open for all vehicles. Would be nice if Tesla didn't have to do it all themselves, since they currently basically plop chargers into lots and provide zero services. It is luck of the draw whether you can actually use a bathroom or wash your windshield while charging your Tesla.

coryrc 5y ago
Near Seattle, the government can't even keep normal rest stops open. In addition, we already have that. I've stopped in DuPont, WA for charge and teriyaki. The charger was subsidized.
- waffletower 5y ago
  In nearby Oregon we don't have that. Except for the part about the government having difficulty keeping rest stations open. We have that.

wantsanagent 5y ago

The focus on profitability seems strange given that gas stations aren't profitable from gas sales either. Gas stations make their money off of their convenience items. You buy a franchise not to sell gas, but to lure customers to your convenience store. Until charging times come down significantly, cafes and restaurants seem like natural partners for charging parks.

LurkingPenguin 5y ago
> ...cafes and restaurants seem like natural partners for charging parks. $30 Avocado toast and $15 lattes.
pkulak 5y ago
Is that really true? The gas stations around me (in the middle of a city) are generally pretty empty inside, but full of cars filling up. They also sell gas for a few cents higher. It seems like it's a mix of the two strategies.
- secabeen 5y ago
  That's my understanding, yes. The profit margins on the convenience items are just so much higher. 20oz bottle of soda? $2. Wholesale price, probably under $0.50.
- optimuspaul 5y ago
  On average it isn't true. The average profit margin is 1.4% for gas stations in the US. Clearly the majority are not making much money on gas. Presumably that low average could mean for many gas is a loss leader.
  - SilasX 5y ago
    Which is greater than zero, contra the top-level comment.
    - wutangson1 5y ago

btilly 5y ago

I believe that many people will do what I did - install a charger at home. Charge your car while you sleep. No inconvenience, no hidden fees. Which means that the charging industry needs to only serve a fraction of what gas stations currently do. The only time that I care about superchargers is on a long trip. Incidentally OCPP is a total mess. I looked at what it takes to implement it a couple of years ago. What they really need are some reference implementations. Because as it stands you just code something up according to the (rather complicated) spec, and then have to deal with interoperating with everyone who read the spec differently. Guess how well that works?

BiteCode_dev 5y ago
It will also make solar even more attractive.
- simiones 5y ago
  Solar is not great for over-night charging...
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    Most people buy solar panels with energy storage.
    - dmitrygr 5y ago
      I am getting solar with battery (in Texas) and I asked all the companies I spoke to when collecting estimates. They said < 10% do. Solar saves you money on the electrical bill and has a chance of breaking even over time. Storage doesn't nearly as much since most people sleep a large portion of the night. Additionally, I suspect you severely underestimate the additional cost ($10k in hardware alone [2], and that is before you get to permits and labor) and severely overestimate the average American family's ability to pay it [1]. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=median+income+usa https://www.google.com/search?q=median+income+usa [2] https://www.buildwithrise.com/stories/tesla-powerwall2-basics https://www.buildwithrise.com/stories/tesla-powerwall2-basic...

ragnot 5y ago

Sidenote: If there's one thing I hate, it's when the headline tells me if "It's OK". It just screams soft propaganda to me.

paganel 5y ago
Glad I wasn't the only one bothered by that, it must be a recent(-ish) trend, I keep reading it more and more lately.
throwaway2077 5y ago
and that's a good thing, here's why
samizdis 5y ago
It grated on me, too, but I left the headline as it was out of some misplaced respect for Spectrum (which seems to have become more clickbaity since its redesign of a few months ago). However, given your comment and others supporting it, I've removed the offending bit.
dang 5y ago
Please don't pick the most provocative thing in a headline or article and then copy it into the threads to complain about it. The most provocative thing is nearly always something shallow and barely (if at all) related. This leads to shallow/indignant discussions, which are the opposite of what we're going for here. It's particularly important because shallow/indignant comments tend to get a lot of upvotes (this is the main weakness of the upvoting system), which means that they end up at the top of threads, choking out more interesting discussion. That's where this one was when I saw it; I've marked it off topic now. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20%22most%20provocative%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

debacle 5y ago

It will be "OK" if we redefine what it means to be an American consumer. Right now, there are still serious issues to EV charging at range. When we have an EV system that can power our trucking system in any serious fashion, the consumer transportation question will seem minimal and facile.

protomyth 5y ago

At some point all of these chargers are going to have to start charging an equivalent to the gas tax to maintain the roads. EVs are heavier than their ICE equivalent. I know some politicians want a mileage fee paid at registration but that is a privacy issue and problematic for low income folks.

notreallyserio 5y ago
If we double the weight of all passenger vehicles, how would the damage they cause compare to large trucks? IIRC the ratio is currently 1:5000 to 1:10000 but trucks don't pay thousands of times more for registration or tax on fuel.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  I would guess that large trucks don’t drive on a large fraction of the roads, mostly staying limited to highways and stuff like that.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- protomyth 5y ago
  No they don't, but they do pay a use tax on the fuel. Electrics aren't paying anything other than registration.
  - notreallyserio 5y ago
    Totally. I'm just wondering if, given we know they don't currently assign costs appropriately, would they start when electric vehicles become the norm? If not, how far off would they be compared to now?
ska 5y ago
While were at it, I've read heavy transport doesn't pay anything like proportional to wear and tear; if so that would seem to be more important to fix, at least at first glance.

draw_down 5y ago

Yeah, no thanks. They need to figure out this kind of table-stakes stuff before I have any interest in this. If the gas station is too busy I go to the next one down the street. And I use the same credit card at all of them.

londons_explore 5y ago

The key issue is chargers are too expensive. A home charger usually consists of a $5 relay, a $1 earth fault clamp and a $1 microcontroller. Yet somehow a home EV charger is $300+! Home chargers could easily be designed to just plug into regular 30 amp 6.6 kilowatt tumble dryer outlets, for no additional cost. Fast chargers are also too expensive. The main expense is high power switching electronics, but the core MOSFET's and inductors are super cheap. For example this[1] part can switch about 70 kilowatts for just $15. A basic 3 phase -> DC charger can be built with one of those, a few capacitors, an inductor, 7 power diodes, fan, heatsink and a microcontroller. So why do commercial DC fast chargers only start at $25k?? [1]: https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Infineon-Technologies/IPZA65R018CFD7XKSA1 https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Infineon-Technologies...

dmitrygr 5y ago
I'd guess at least partially for the same reason that a Cessna 172 costs $80k in parts and retails for $400k. A large part of the sale price goes to a bank account titled "in case of lawsuit." Someone needs to pay the lawyers when you get sued for a fire, etc...
jeffbee 5y ago
Just the cord for a 30-amp EVSE costs $200, so I think you are slightly underestimating the bill of materials. The pricing is fairly consistent with outdoor-rated generator cords, which are $2.50/foot for 10/4.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  so a 10 foot cord should be $25... The wholesale cost of the copper for 10 feet @30 amps is $9. The rest is plastic, manufacturing & logistics costs.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    I still doubt your analysis, however if you think you have identified an interchangeable consumer product with growing demand, for which the incumbent sellers have excessive margins, the rational thing for you to do is enter that business.

josephcsible 5y ago

I don't care that I'll be competing for more cars at Superchargers. What I care about is their charging speeds. I'd be perfectly fine waiting for a Porsche Taycan to charge at 270kW, but I'd be really really annoyed waiting for a Chevy Bolt to charge at 50kW.

clouddrover 5y ago
Here's a Taycan charging at 134 kW on a Tesla charger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0F42jY3dD8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0F42jY3dD8 The charger claims to be rated for 1000 volts but either the Taycan isn't requesting enough volts or the charger isn't delivering them.

ajross 5y ago

I hate to say it, but as a Tesla owner there's a deep current of concern trolling pervading this genre. People who didn't buy Teslas and who don't use superchargers have, well, way too much to say about what Tesla "should" do with its superchargers and how it will effect those people who don't use them and didn't buy a compatible product. I mean, guys... That said: I agree that open access to chargers is a good thing for everyone and that it accelerates the day when these things are as routine as gas stations. But good grief everyone, don't pretend to be dispassionate observers, you just want access to superchargers.

clouddrover 5y ago
> didn't buy a compatible product ... But good grief everyone, don't pretend to be dispassionate observers, you just want access to superchargers. No, what I want is for EV infrastructure to have the same utility as ICE infrastructure. I can fuel my ICE vehicle at any fueling station, no matter the brand of the station or the brand of the car. Similarly, I should be able to charge my EV at any charging station. Tesla switched to CCS in Europe a few years ago and they've just recently opened an initial 10 charging sites in the Netherlands to all EVs. That's the benefit of a common standard. All other manufacturers have switched to CCS in North America. Tesla is the last remaining holdout. Balkanized charging infrastructure is just plain dumb and no good for anyone. Incompatible plugs and brand exclusive chargers just make EVs worse.

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago

Even in a hypothetical world where there are as many electric stations as gas stations, the wait seems like a real pain point. I won’t buy an EV until I live somewhere I can charge it at home, and even then I’d rather take a gas car on road trips. What’s that telephone operator math problem about how adding just a few more incoming to the queue increases average wait times astronomically or something?