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Macs have huge penetration into the developer market. I could see a lot of devs whacking Linux on their M1 Macs to enjoy benefits like being able to run contain

Macs have huge penetration into the developer market. I could see a lot of devs whacking Linux on their M1 Macs to enjoy benefits like being able to run containers outside of a virtual machine. If Apple waited 6 months and released a significantly cheaper 16 inch M1 Pro Mac with a non-XDR screen and in the old form factor (to save money on tooling), similar how they do with the iPhone SE line, then they'd make so much damn money from devs jumping on board.

jtbayly 5y ago
No they wouldn't. There really aren't enough devs around to make that statement true. Plus, if so many devs would do that, they can buy the 6-month-old refurbs at that time and do what they want. If they aren't doing that, then they wouldn't buy the machine you're imagining.
- scoopertrooper 5y ago
  Devs may be small in number relative to the consumer market, but they're big in impact when it comes to building out an ecosystem. People complain about Linux on Desktop, but the Linux on Desktop is unreasonably good considering its market share. As devs build out that ecosystem it'll become easier bring products to ARM. Eventually, we might even see something like the Steam Machines built on an ARM64 platform. If it ever happens, it'll happen on the backs of those trail blazing devs who built out the ecosystem, because they were able to get a pretty rockin' laptop on an ARM64 platform. Devs also happen to be great evangelists for bringing technologies into the corporate ecosystem. This will create a demand for porting popular MDM and other corporate tooling over to ARM64. I'm a dev and I'd love a machine like that. I actually think the older form factor is better, I carry my laptop to and from work every day, so I appreciate a lighter and slimmer laptop and I don't think I'm alone on that account. I couldn't care less about a screen that can get up to 1000+ nits, but only when playing certain videos.
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    I fail to see how any of that would make Apple a bunch of money. I know Apple needs devs to make money. Lots of them. But I don't see any lack of them at the moment. In this context it appears we are just talking about selling more machines. You'd buy one. So would a few others. Apple wouldn't make a ton of money on that machine though.
- intrasight 5y ago
  There are enough iOS developers to make some difference. And I think that if it weren't for those iOS developers, who have no choice but to run MacOS, there would be many fewer developers using Macs.
  - tcmart14 5y ago
    Not just iOS, just the issue that you need MacOS to make applications for the apple ecosystem regardless. Im sure iOS is a big part, but I also imagine all the desktop application that want to be cross platform, so think like Photoshop. Or Microsoft has to have a Mac somewhere to compile Office to MacOS.
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      You don't need a Mac anymore. https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/mac/ https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/mac/
burntoutfire 5y ago
The containers won't run on an M1 Macs. Software packages baked into images (at least the ones meant to be run ultimately on the servers) are actually x86 binaries, so no luck running them on ARM CPUs.
- dylan604 5y ago
  People can't build new containers with the appropriate binaries?
  - burntoutfire 5y ago
    They can, but typically, as a developer, you want to run containers with images that you'll later deploy to servers. And servers run on x86...
ianpurton 5y ago
Running container outside a VM is my use case too. Would love to see some performance numbers.
- sp332 5y ago
  What is the advantage?
  - saxonww 5y ago
    Docker Desktop for Mac runs Docker in a VM. It has poor disk I/O compared to native, and IIRC it is not as capable as native from a networking perspective (perhaps not a big issue). Also, as of recently it costs money to use Docker Desktop for Mac for work purposes. So the advantage is you get better container performance, all the capability you would normally get with container workloads on their native platform (Linux), and you wouldn't have to use the Docker Desktop product anymore.
    - xur17 5y ago
      In addition to performance, I also ran into weird bugs with the Docker Desktop vm. The VM would run out of disk, and other things that would not occur with a native docker.
      - stcredzero 5y ago
        I was constantly seeing a coworker at my last job in that sort of situation. For some reason Docker on MacOS was inflating RAM use, IIRC.
        saxonww 5y ago
        It also has weird bouts of high CPU usage, even if running containers are not busy. I think it's due to overhead with osxfs handling local disk changes (e.g. you've mounted a volume with a large git repo, and in that repo on the host you switched to a much different revision). It's hard to troubleshoot because it's not obvious how to get into the VM to see what's going on. FWIW, https://stackoverflow.com/a/68561693/3230028 https://stackoverflow.com/a/68561693/3230028 is how you do that. Overall, this is an issue that I think goes beyond Docker on a Mac. We have multiple examples of development targeting one platform, or involving tools native to that platform. But because of preference, or conflict with other tools, or policy, we end up with these emulation or compatibility layers like HyperKit/Docker for Mac, or WSL/WSL2, or WINE, or frankly WebAssembly/Emscripten/whatever. And I think the result is almost always worse than if people just found the most native set of tooling for their primary use case and used that. What is it about macOS that makes Docker Desktop for Mac worth it, if your development workflow is heavily container-based? At my workplace, it's mostly policy and preference issues making Linux unsuitable for the majority of the user base, even though that majority is working with containers constantly and targeting Linux. I guess you can pick at this and point out that we're not writing software in assembly for a reason, but I feel like there's a line where you have too much abstraction, adaptation, or emulation, and for me workflows built around something like Docker Desktop for Mac just so we can use macOS are over that line.
duped 5y ago
In the big developer markets, the price of the device isn't a huge factor. Today, the available stock is a bigger deal. At least for a daily driver. I also want the highest resolution screen with crispest graphics possible if I'm staring at it all day (1080p IPS displays are awful for my eyes). The thing about Macs that makes them nicer than most comparable Linux machines is the display is much better. One of the only reasons to consider the Mac over something like an XPS today though (other than that you can go out and buy it) is that it supports Adobe products which you may need for front end work. However, if my company is all in on Figma and Im just working on a generic backend you bet your butt I'm asking for an XPS.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  > In the big developer markets, the price of the device isn't a huge factor. You might suffer from SV syndrome. I live in a small town in the east of France: anything Apple is unaffordable (without major sacrifices and uncertainty to be able to replace the machine if it breaks too soon). Right now if I had to replace my current computer, I would have about 600€ total budget. And France isn't exactly a third world country (but we're doing our best to get there ;)
  - duped 5y ago
    I'm not in SV, but my employers have all provided my machines. Some companies are better than others, but price usually isn't a factor at places I've worked. I also probably wouldn't work at a company that gives their engineers shitty computers, since that's like working at a restaurant that makes their cooks use dull knives (and there is a big market of places that will give you whatever set you want)
  - jkepler 5y ago
    I'm also in France, but in a larger city, but what you said still rings true. I prefer older Thinkpads, as if something breaks I can either fix it myself or take it to just about any computer repair shop on earth and they'll have the ability to repair it. Plus they tend to run Debian with ease.
- 5y ago
stcredzero 5y ago
I could see a lot of devs whacking Linux on their M1 Macs to enjoy benefits like being able to run containers outside of a virtual machine. If Apple did something about the container situation, it might show a lot of developers that Apple notices them and gives a damn.
pjmlp 5y ago
Rich countries developer market, on the other tiers not so much.
kcb 5y ago
I would think most developers in the world are using corporate laptops. Don't think we'll ever see a fully unsupported OS installed on those.
- scoopertrooper 5y ago
  There's plenty of companies that operate on the business model of selling 'supported' linux to the narcs in corporate IT.

jtbayly 5y ago

No they wouldn't. There really aren't enough devs around to make that statement true. Plus, if so many devs would do that, they can buy the 6-month-old refurbs at that time and do what they want. If they aren't doing that, then they wouldn't buy the machine you're imagining.

scoopertrooper 5y ago
Devs may be small in number relative to the consumer market, but they're big in impact when it comes to building out an ecosystem. People complain about Linux on Desktop, but the Linux on Desktop is unreasonably good considering its market share. As devs build out that ecosystem it'll become easier bring products to ARM. Eventually, we might even see something like the Steam Machines built on an ARM64 platform. If it ever happens, it'll happen on the backs of those trail blazing devs who built out the ecosystem, because they were able to get a pretty rockin' laptop on an ARM64 platform. Devs also happen to be great evangelists for bringing technologies into the corporate ecosystem. This will create a demand for porting popular MDM and other corporate tooling over to ARM64. I'm a dev and I'd love a machine like that. I actually think the older form factor is better, I carry my laptop to and from work every day, so I appreciate a lighter and slimmer laptop and I don't think I'm alone on that account. I couldn't care less about a screen that can get up to 1000+ nits, but only when playing certain videos.
- jtbayly 5y ago
  I fail to see how any of that would make Apple a bunch of money. I know Apple needs devs to make money. Lots of them. But I don't see any lack of them at the moment. In this context it appears we are just talking about selling more machines. You'd buy one. So would a few others. Apple wouldn't make a ton of money on that machine though.
intrasight 5y ago
There are enough iOS developers to make some difference. And I think that if it weren't for those iOS developers, who have no choice but to run MacOS, there would be many fewer developers using Macs.
- tcmart14 5y ago
  Not just iOS, just the issue that you need MacOS to make applications for the apple ecosystem regardless. Im sure iOS is a big part, but I also imagine all the desktop application that want to be cross platform, so think like Photoshop. Or Microsoft has to have a Mac somewhere to compile Office to MacOS.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    You don't need a Mac anymore. https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/mac/ https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/mac/

burntoutfire 5y ago

The containers won't run on an M1 Macs. Software packages baked into images (at least the ones meant to be run ultimately on the servers) are actually x86 binaries, so no luck running them on ARM CPUs.

dylan604 5y ago
People can't build new containers with the appropriate binaries?
- burntoutfire 5y ago
  They can, but typically, as a developer, you want to run containers with images that you'll later deploy to servers. And servers run on x86...

ianpurton 5y ago

Running container outside a VM is my use case too. Would love to see some performance numbers.

sp332 5y ago
What is the advantage?
- saxonww 5y ago
  Docker Desktop for Mac runs Docker in a VM. It has poor disk I/O compared to native, and IIRC it is not as capable as native from a networking perspective (perhaps not a big issue). Also, as of recently it costs money to use Docker Desktop for Mac for work purposes. So the advantage is you get better container performance, all the capability you would normally get with container workloads on their native platform (Linux), and you wouldn't have to use the Docker Desktop product anymore.
  - xur17 5y ago
    In addition to performance, I also ran into weird bugs with the Docker Desktop vm. The VM would run out of disk, and other things that would not occur with a native docker.
    - stcredzero 5y ago
      I was constantly seeing a coworker at my last job in that sort of situation. For some reason Docker on MacOS was inflating RAM use, IIRC.
      - saxonww 5y ago
        It also has weird bouts of high CPU usage, even if running containers are not busy. I think it's due to overhead with osxfs handling local disk changes (e.g. you've mounted a volume with a large git repo, and in that repo on the host you switched to a much different revision). It's hard to troubleshoot because it's not obvious how to get into the VM to see what's going on. FWIW, https://stackoverflow.com/a/68561693/3230028 https://stackoverflow.com/a/68561693/3230028 is how you do that. Overall, this is an issue that I think goes beyond Docker on a Mac. We have multiple examples of development targeting one platform, or involving tools native to that platform. But because of preference, or conflict with other tools, or policy, we end up with these emulation or compatibility layers like HyperKit/Docker for Mac, or WSL/WSL2, or WINE, or frankly WebAssembly/Emscripten/whatever. And I think the result is almost always worse than if people just found the most native set of tooling for their primary use case and used that. What is it about macOS that makes Docker Desktop for Mac worth it, if your development workflow is heavily container-based? At my workplace, it's mostly policy and preference issues making Linux unsuitable for the majority of the user base, even though that majority is working with containers constantly and targeting Linux. I guess you can pick at this and point out that we're not writing software in assembly for a reason, but I feel like there's a line where you have too much abstraction, adaptation, or emulation, and for me workflows built around something like Docker Desktop for Mac just so we can use macOS are over that line.

duped 5y ago

In the big developer markets, the price of the device isn't a huge factor. Today, the available stock is a bigger deal. At least for a daily driver. I also want the highest resolution screen with crispest graphics possible if I'm staring at it all day (1080p IPS displays are awful for my eyes). The thing about Macs that makes them nicer than most comparable Linux machines is the display is much better. One of the only reasons to consider the Mac over something like an XPS today though (other than that you can go out and buy it) is that it supports Adobe products which you may need for front end work. However, if my company is all in on Figma and Im just working on a generic backend you bet your butt I'm asking for an XPS.

jmnicolas 5y ago
> In the big developer markets, the price of the device isn't a huge factor. You might suffer from SV syndrome. I live in a small town in the east of France: anything Apple is unaffordable (without major sacrifices and uncertainty to be able to replace the machine if it breaks too soon). Right now if I had to replace my current computer, I would have about 600€ total budget. And France isn't exactly a third world country (but we're doing our best to get there ;)
- duped 5y ago
  I'm not in SV, but my employers have all provided my machines. Some companies are better than others, but price usually isn't a factor at places I've worked. I also probably wouldn't work at a company that gives their engineers shitty computers, since that's like working at a restaurant that makes their cooks use dull knives (and there is a big market of places that will give you whatever set you want)
- jkepler 5y ago
  I'm also in France, but in a larger city, but what you said still rings true. I prefer older Thinkpads, as if something breaks I can either fix it myself or take it to just about any computer repair shop on earth and they'll have the ability to repair it. Plus they tend to run Debian with ease.
5y ago

stcredzero 5y ago

I could see a lot of devs whacking Linux on their M1 Macs to enjoy benefits like being able to run containers outside of a virtual machine. If Apple did something about the container situation, it might show a lot of developers that Apple notices them and gives a damn.

pjmlp 5y ago

Rich countries developer market, on the other tiers not so much.

kcb 5y ago

I would think most developers in the world are using corporate laptops. Don't think we'll ever see a fully unsupported OS installed on those.

scoopertrooper 5y ago
There's plenty of companies that operate on the business model of selling 'supported' linux to the narcs in corporate IT.