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There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into

by wheels 15y ago

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up. Top lawyers aren't paid the most because they know the law the best; that's ancillary. They're paid big bucks because they win money for their clients, prevent their clients from losing money and build networks to people that have money to give them. Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential. 8 of the 20 richest people in America are (or have been, at least nominally) programmers. The crux of things is that you don't get rich for being a skilled technician -- and I use that word broadly. Lawyers don't get rich for knowing the law, bankers don't get rich for understanding economics and programmers don't get rich for slinging code. You get rich by creating value (or at least tying yourself at an opportune moment to a benefactor whose goals are so aligned). The rest of folks are compensated at prevailing market rates for their technical skills -- and incidentally, American programmers are paid better than in almost any other country. But claiming that "computer programmers don't get respect" is broken on so many levels. First, computer programmers are certainly among the most respected trades. You need to interact with a broader cross-section of society if you believe that not to be the case. Second, the baseline for becoming a programmer isn't very high -- certainly nothing on the order of becoming a doctor or lawyer. The median programmer has jumped over far fewer hurdles than the median doctor or lawyer. (I got my first programming job at 17. I'd have needed another decade of non-trivial training before I'd have been able to get a job as a doctor.) The spectrum is far broader for programmers, and as such, the respect a programmer commands has more to do with their actual status within those ranks than simply being a part of that trade. But again, the spectrum extends up to "richest person in the world", so we're hardly being shafted. If being respected among the elite is something that you want, align your goals with that. If it's not, enjoy the fact that you're in a trade where even untrained, mediocre practitioners reach the top 10% of American incomes.

vetler 15y ago
Thank you, more or less exactly what I wanted to say, but I found it difficult to find the right words.
throwaway37 15y ago
Firstly, if you disagree, that's fine. But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. DH0, to use Paul Graham's phrase. Secondly, some of my arguments might be wrong, but I provide numbers and evidence to back them up. "Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential." Evidence? If you're talking about startups, I already covered that. Read the post. "and incidentally, American programmers are paid better than in almost any other country." This is sophistry. American Xs are paid better than non-American Xs because America has a high GDP per capita, pretty much regardless of X. "First, computer programmers are certainly among the most respected trades." Citation? And, adjusted for IQ, skill, hours worked, degrees earned, and so on? "If it's not, enjoy the fact that you're in a trade where even untrained, mediocre practitioners reach the top 10% of American incomes." Citation? Do you even know what the top 10% is? Here's a hint: The average salary of a computer programmer in the US is $75,000 (cite: http://www.collegeboard.com/csearch/majors_careers/profiles/careers/106478.html http://www.collegeboard.com/csearch/majors_careers/profiles/...). Most of those have college degrees in computer science or other technical fields, they certainly aren't "untrained". And 90th percentile income is higher than that even including people who don't have jobs (cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_S...).
- ericd 15y ago
  Many of the top programmers at Google are making much more than you mentioned in your post. The amount you mentioned is more in line with a ~20 something there, in total compensation. A Bachelors degree does not compare to medical school + residency (they also have to get a bachelor's before starting those two). While you're making money for 8 years at a comfortable 9-6, they're spending over 100k to train themselves and performing physically and mentally exhausting work. Also, in the medical profession, those in primary care don't make the huge amounts you posted - many are below 200k, some far below. It's the specialists that you're thinking of.

by wheels 15y ago

vetler 15y ago

Thank you, more or less exactly what I wanted to say, but I found it difficult to find the right words.

throwaway37 15y ago

Firstly, if you disagree, that's fine. But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. DH0, to use Paul Graham's phrase. Secondly, some of my arguments might be wrong, but I provide numbers and evidence to back them up. "Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential." Evidence? If you're talking about startups, I already covered that. Read the post. "and incidentally, American programmers are paid better than in almost any other country." This is sophistry. American Xs are paid better than non-American Xs because America has a high GDP per capita, pretty much regardless of X. "First, computer programmers are certainly among the most respected trades." Citation? And, adjusted for IQ, skill, hours worked, degrees earned, and so on? "If it's not, enjoy the fact that you're in a trade where even untrained, mediocre practitioners reach the top 10% of American incomes." Citation? Do you even know what the top 10% is? Here's a hint: The average salary of a computer programmer in the US is $75,000 (cite: http://www.collegeboard.com/csearch/majors_careers/profiles/careers/106478.html http://www.collegeboard.com/csearch/majors_careers/profiles/...). Most of those have college degrees in computer science or other technical fields, they certainly aren't "untrained". And 90th percentile income is higher than that even including people who don't have jobs (cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_S...).

ericd 15y ago
Many of the top programmers at Google are making much more than you mentioned in your post. The amount you mentioned is more in line with a ~20 something there, in total compensation. A Bachelors degree does not compare to medical school + residency (they also have to get a bachelor's before starting those two). While you're making money for 8 years at a comfortable 9-6, they're spending over 100k to train themselves and performing physically and mentally exhausting work. Also, in the medical profession, those in primary care don't make the huge amounts you posted - many are below 200k, some far below. It's the specialists that you're thinking of.