4 ms·

I think you make several excellent points, and I unexpectedly found myself agreeing with you. I thought $150k was a lot of money, but had never stopped to thin

by nirvana 15y ago

I think you make several excellent points, and I unexpectedly found myself agreeing with you. I thought $150k was a lot of money, but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more. I think the reason we're seeing this is that programming has been commoditized quite successfully by an industry that saw they needed programmers but that did not know how to judge the quality of a programmer. Doctors certainly vary greatly in quality, but doctors are unionized after a fashion by the AMA, and they have managed to put into place artificial supply controls (regulation and licensure) that keep incomes higher. The software development industry has gone the other way- instead of limiting the number of programmers (not necessarily a good thing, but it would boost incomes) we've developed quite a bit of process to try and make programmers interchangeable. I'm talking about much of the "best practice" and even the entire attitude that programmers should not be "lone guns" but part of a homogenous collective of coders. Everything from pair programming to test driven development to code reviews serves the process of making programmers homogenous and interchangeable, and thus more easily replaceable. I also think that the Legal and Medical and Finance professions have developed for centuries in an environment where they were able to artificially limit the number of practitioners, and artificially boost the "Establishment credibility" that they received. I don't think most politicians are lawyers because lawyers are good leaders, but because lawyers were able to establish that career path as one of their own. Software development, in contrast, is much newer, and currently is much closer to a free market.

nasmorn 15y ago
Very true, in Austria many politicians are farmers or teachers because our party system encourages these professions into politics though unions, agricultural chambers and so on. They are represented out of proportion because they have a way to receive political training that is compatible with their original career. The legal profession in America has a huge upstart politically as votes are required for many positions in the legal system, thus allowing the professionals to acquire experience with campaigns, raising money, taking over public office.
roel_v 15y ago
"but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more." A CS degree, which many programmers don't even have, takes 4 years. There are quite a few 'programming' jobs for which having a CS degree is being overqualified, but let's say that a CS degree is the baseline. To become an MD, with the specialties that pay the amounts mentioned here, one needs to get a 4 year degree, then pass the MCAT, then go to medical school for 4 years, and then do 3 to 8 (!) years of residency, in which you do 60 hours on a slow week and have regular weekend and night shifts. So that's 11 to 16 years of studying. You only get paid in the residency, and even there only around US modal wage. Never mind that nowhere in this time period, you are guaranteed a high-paying job. You can do your full residency and be told at the end that they don't consider you fit to be a doctor. Do a quick total lifetime earnings comparison in Excel. Don't forget to include tuition and resulting student debt payments. You'll see that the general picture painted is flat out wrong. (don't even get me started on lawyers - there is vast unemployment under lawyers, only a very small percentage work at firms that pay the amounts mentioned, and of those only a very small percentage make partner, after working 80 hour weeks for 20 years. Why do you think the US alcoholism rate is twice the national average amongst lawyers? Hint: not because they have the easy-money lifestyle being suggested here.)
- arethuza 15y ago
  I honestly think that most people in the software field have no idea of the level of personal responsibility that junior doctors and lawyers are given and what that can mean in terms of stress levels.
  - patio11 15y ago
    To be fair, not every programmer faces "Oh noes I will lose a cat picture" as their maximum possible downside when coding. I worked in a town where programming errors could easily causes crashes. There was talk of that actually happening once, although on investigation that probably wasn't actually true. When I say "crashes", the hardware at issue would routinely way several tons and be moving at 60+ miles an hour. I do not mean to cast any aspersions on the huge levels of responsibility and mental stress involved in reviewing purchasing contracts.
gte910h 15y ago
If you're willing to work doctor hours doing valuable things, you're going to make much more comparable salaries to doctors. Doctors work absurd hours for years, then many go on to keep working absurd hours. Doctors who don't run practices don't make the same paychecks, and again, same works for coders. If you don't run a consulting house, don't plan on making 200-500k a year.

by nirvana 15y ago

nasmorn 15y ago

Very true, in Austria many politicians are farmers or teachers because our party system encourages these professions into politics though unions, agricultural chambers and so on. They are represented out of proportion because they have a way to receive political training that is compatible with their original career. The legal profession in America has a huge upstart politically as votes are required for many positions in the legal system, thus allowing the professionals to acquire experience with campaigns, raising money, taking over public office.

roel_v 15y ago

"but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more." A CS degree, which many programmers don't even have, takes 4 years. There are quite a few 'programming' jobs for which having a CS degree is being overqualified, but let's say that a CS degree is the baseline. To become an MD, with the specialties that pay the amounts mentioned here, one needs to get a 4 year degree, then pass the MCAT, then go to medical school for 4 years, and then do 3 to 8 (!) years of residency, in which you do 60 hours on a slow week and have regular weekend and night shifts. So that's 11 to 16 years of studying. You only get paid in the residency, and even there only around US modal wage. Never mind that nowhere in this time period, you are guaranteed a high-paying job. You can do your full residency and be told at the end that they don't consider you fit to be a doctor. Do a quick total lifetime earnings comparison in Excel. Don't forget to include tuition and resulting student debt payments. You'll see that the general picture painted is flat out wrong. (don't even get me started on lawyers - there is vast unemployment under lawyers, only a very small percentage work at firms that pay the amounts mentioned, and of those only a very small percentage make partner, after working 80 hour weeks for 20 years. Why do you think the US alcoholism rate is twice the national average amongst lawyers? Hint: not because they have the easy-money lifestyle being suggested here.)

arethuza 15y ago
I honestly think that most people in the software field have no idea of the level of personal responsibility that junior doctors and lawyers are given and what that can mean in terms of stress levels.
- patio11 15y ago
  To be fair, not every programmer faces "Oh noes I will lose a cat picture" as their maximum possible downside when coding. I worked in a town where programming errors could easily causes crashes. There was talk of that actually happening once, although on investigation that probably wasn't actually true. When I say "crashes", the hardware at issue would routinely way several tons and be moving at 60+ miles an hour. I do not mean to cast any aspersions on the huge levels of responsibility and mental stress involved in reviewing purchasing contracts.

gte910h 15y ago

If you're willing to work doctor hours doing valuable things, you're going to make much more comparable salaries to doctors. Doctors work absurd hours for years, then many go on to keep working absurd hours. Doctors who don't run practices don't make the same paychecks, and again, same works for coders. If you don't run a consulting house, don't plan on making 200-500k a year.