5 ms·

You're stuck in the world of ten years ago. Absolutely none of that is true. Refueling is the same as a gasoline car. A fuel cell car also costs about the same

by Hypx_ 5y ago

You're stuck in the world of ten years ago. Absolutely none of that is true. Refueling is the same as a gasoline car. A fuel cell car also costs about the same as a SUV to own and run. It fully makes sense to begin the transition to hydrogen cars now.

theshrike79 5y ago
So there's no need to re-pressurise the station after every few cars anymore? At least a year ago this caused queues in Californian H2 stations, people had to queue for 30-40 minutes waiting for their turn. Hydrogen price in Germany, with government support, is around 9.5€/kg. Toyota Mirai's consumption is about 1kg/100km, making the cost to drive 100km 9.5€. You can drive the same distance with an EV for a third or half of the price, depending on where you charge. (0.20€/kWh for public charging, consumption around 15-20kW/100km = 3-4€/100km) The Mirai, without the insane Californian rebates and subsidies, is around 80k€ in Europe. You can get a fully loaded (FSD and everything) Tesla Model 3 LR for 10k€ less.
- Hypx_ 5y ago
  No. How hard is it to have faster pressurization and/or extra tanks? For any of the newer stations this is solved. Gasoline is approaching 7€ per gallon in Germany. Cost per mile is cheaper with a hydrogen car. Public charging is more like 0.40€/kWh in Germany too. Cost per mile is is not that different between EVs and hydrogen cars. The Mirai starts at 50,000€ before subsidies in Europe. It is nearly as cheap as the cheapest Model 3. Depending on the subsidies you get it could be even cheaper. Future hydrogen will be cheaper and so will be fuel cell costs. People's mentality on this subject is entirely out of date.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    > How hard is it to have faster pressurization and/or extra tanks? For any of the newer stations this is solved. Is this a fact or speculation? I haven't heard of faster pressurisation systems. You can't just pressurise highly flammable gases "faster" all willy-nilly, stuff tends to heat up and boiling point lowers when pressure goes up. Even at 0.40€/kWh it's still about 6 euros / 100km. Still 1/3 lower than H2. And with the car prices being similar or lower, there isn't really any point for H2. Gasoline is reaching parity with subsidised H2 though, let's see how that goes in Germany since exactly zero German manufacturers are doing FCEV cars.
    - Hypx_ 5y ago
      It's a fact. Pressurization is a very simply physics problem and it's just delusion to think this will always be slow. The simplest solution is just have bigger or more tanks. Again, it's a solved problem. As electricity prices are still going up, and with hydrogen coming down we're not far off from cost parity. People really need to foresee a day where FCEVs are cheaper than BEVs. EVs in general are heavily subsidized. By the time we switch to hydrogen fuel taxation it's likely gasoline will have already been displaced. Many German manufacturers are making hydrogen vehicles, albeit not passenger cars. That said, this is the most obvious disruptive event in recent memory. It wouldn't be a surprise if all of them went bankrupt due to the arrival of hydrogen cars. It's also something of a surprise as many UK companies are investing in hydrogen cars.
      - theshrike79 5y ago
        Is it a solved problem in relation to hydrogen vehicle refueling? In theory, yes, we can pressurise things very very fast. It does cost money and space (larger tanks), which makes it impractical for everyday solutions. I still don't get how hydrogen can be cheaper than electricity, since creating green hydrogen via electrolysis takes around 4-5 times more electricity than it can actually produce. Blue/grey hydrogen is just natural gas, which doesn't make it any more environmentally friendly than just running a straght-up CNG car. In my country the electricity price could quadruple and it's still cheaper than gasoline or diesel. The closest H2 refueling point is in a neighbouring country. And no one is rushing to put up a comprehensive network of $2 million a pop H2 stations. An example from Sweden: https://www.h2euro.org/whats-h2appening/sweden-more-than-triples-number-of-hydrogen-stations-by-2020/ https://www.h2euro.org/whats-h2appening/sweden-more-than-tri... News from 2017 about how Sweden will TRIPLE their number of H2 stations from 4 to 12 by 2020! It's now 2021, almost 2022 and the number of stations is... still four. (Meanwhile a single supermarket chain in Finland has opened 222 new charging points during Q2-Q4/2021) This is a huge chicken and egg problem. Someone needs to front up truckloads of cash and bureaucracy fighting time to put up a comprehensive network before regular people will shell up cash for H2 vehicles.
        5y ago

by Hypx_ 5y ago

theshrike79 5y ago

So there's no need to re-pressurise the station after every few cars anymore? At least a year ago this caused queues in Californian H2 stations, people had to queue for 30-40 minutes waiting for their turn. Hydrogen price in Germany, with government support, is around 9.5€/kg. Toyota Mirai's consumption is about 1kg/100km, making the cost to drive 100km 9.5€. You can drive the same distance with an EV for a third or half of the price, depending on where you charge. (0.20€/kWh for public charging, consumption around 15-20kW/100km = 3-4€/100km) The Mirai, without the insane Californian rebates and subsidies, is around 80k€ in Europe. You can get a fully loaded (FSD and everything) Tesla Model 3 LR for 10k€ less.

Hypx_ 5y ago
No. How hard is it to have faster pressurization and/or extra tanks? For any of the newer stations this is solved. Gasoline is approaching 7€ per gallon in Germany. Cost per mile is cheaper with a hydrogen car. Public charging is more like 0.40€/kWh in Germany too. Cost per mile is is not that different between EVs and hydrogen cars. The Mirai starts at 50,000€ before subsidies in Europe. It is nearly as cheap as the cheapest Model 3. Depending on the subsidies you get it could be even cheaper. Future hydrogen will be cheaper and so will be fuel cell costs. People's mentality on this subject is entirely out of date.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  > How hard is it to have faster pressurization and/or extra tanks? For any of the newer stations this is solved. Is this a fact or speculation? I haven't heard of faster pressurisation systems. You can't just pressurise highly flammable gases "faster" all willy-nilly, stuff tends to heat up and boiling point lowers when pressure goes up. Even at 0.40€/kWh it's still about 6 euros / 100km. Still 1/3 lower than H2. And with the car prices being similar or lower, there isn't really any point for H2. Gasoline is reaching parity with subsidised H2 though, let's see how that goes in Germany since exactly zero German manufacturers are doing FCEV cars.
  - Hypx_ 5y ago
    It's a fact. Pressurization is a very simply physics problem and it's just delusion to think this will always be slow. The simplest solution is just have bigger or more tanks. Again, it's a solved problem. As electricity prices are still going up, and with hydrogen coming down we're not far off from cost parity. People really need to foresee a day where FCEVs are cheaper than BEVs. EVs in general are heavily subsidized. By the time we switch to hydrogen fuel taxation it's likely gasoline will have already been displaced. Many German manufacturers are making hydrogen vehicles, albeit not passenger cars. That said, this is the most obvious disruptive event in recent memory. It wouldn't be a surprise if all of them went bankrupt due to the arrival of hydrogen cars. It's also something of a surprise as many UK companies are investing in hydrogen cars.
    - theshrike79 5y ago
      Is it a solved problem in relation to hydrogen vehicle refueling? In theory, yes, we can pressurise things very very fast. It does cost money and space (larger tanks), which makes it impractical for everyday solutions. I still don't get how hydrogen can be cheaper than electricity, since creating green hydrogen via electrolysis takes around 4-5 times more electricity than it can actually produce. Blue/grey hydrogen is just natural gas, which doesn't make it any more environmentally friendly than just running a straght-up CNG car. In my country the electricity price could quadruple and it's still cheaper than gasoline or diesel. The closest H2 refueling point is in a neighbouring country. And no one is rushing to put up a comprehensive network of $2 million a pop H2 stations. An example from Sweden: https://www.h2euro.org/whats-h2appening/sweden-more-than-triples-number-of-hydrogen-stations-by-2020/ https://www.h2euro.org/whats-h2appening/sweden-more-than-tri... News from 2017 about how Sweden will TRIPLE their number of H2 stations from 4 to 12 by 2020! It's now 2021, almost 2022 and the number of stations is... still four. (Meanwhile a single supermarket chain in Finland has opened 222 new charging points during Q2-Q4/2021) This is a huge chicken and egg problem. Someone needs to front up truckloads of cash and bureaucracy fighting time to put up a comprehensive network before regular people will shell up cash for H2 vehicles.
      - 5y ago