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Thank you for your reply. I think you raise some great points, and I'll respond to a few that I have knowledge of. > But why do so many people want these monor

Thank you for your reply. I think you raise some great points, and I'll respond to a few that I have knowledge of. > But why do so many people want these monorepos? Google-copying is part of it for sure. And I agree with your position - copying Google isn't a great reason on its own. Some more valid reasons: code which deploys together often wants to live together. Common dependencies can be easier to find (and use) if they're right there in the repo. Related, making cross-cutting changes can be easier when you can make an atomic change everywhere. Also, big repos often started out as small repos and then grew over time; the cost of a major change might outweigh the friction caused by keeping Git in place. Consider also that we might not all be talking about the same thing. Some people (even here in this topic) consider Linux to be "large" and "a monorepo". Linux isn't notably big anymore, and it's not unusually challenging to host or to use locally. It's arguably a monorepo since it contains most of the code for the Linux kernel, but to me, "monorepo" implies needing special attention. So I probably wouldn't classify Linux as a monorepo for this discussion. > I can't figure out why so many people are married to git but insist on leaning into its weaknesses I'm sure there are many reasons. The common one I hear in my role boils down to, essentially, "Git is the de facto standard". That can be expressed in several ways: "it's harder to attract and retain engineers with an uncommon toolset"; "we want to focus on our core business, not on innovating in version control"; "all the other tools in our kit work with Git". (NB: I put those in scare quotes to distinguish that they aren't my or GitHub's position, they're things I've heard from others. They're not direct quotes, though.) I talk with customers weekly who want to mash dozens of independent repos (Git or otherwise) together. If they aren't going to reap any of the benefits mentioned above or elsewhere in this topic, I strongly advise against it. At the end of the day, GitHub doesn't care if you have one giant monorepo or 1000 tiny ones; the product works pretty well for both. I suppose that's why I felt compelled to reply to your thread in particular -- yes, we're investing in monorepos, but no, it's not because we're trying to drive people to them.

anon9001 5y ago
Thanks for engaging in discussion about this. If nothing else, you're building my confidence in GitHub. > Consider also that we might not all be talking about the same thing. I think this is 90% of the confusion/disagreement in this thread. I've always thought that it's fine to use git however you want, but if you hit a bottleneck (it gets too big and becomes slow), then you split your repo along logical boundaries (usually a large library can be split out and versioned, for example). Somewhere over the last 15 years, that's changed, and the zeitgeist is now "mash dozens of independent repos into one repo" no matter the situation. Everyone in this thread that's suggested monorepos aren't the way to go has been downvoted, which caught me by surprise. > I suppose that's why I felt compelled to reply to your thread in particular -- yes, we're investing in monorepos, but no, it's not because we're trying to drive people to them. I believe you're sincere, and perhaps I was a bit too cynical about GitHub's motivations. Sorry about that, this topic is just frustrating and GH is in a position to help make things better. Do you think GitHub could offer some kind of practical guide about when to use monorepos and what their limitations are? I think part of the problem is that git's docs and the git-scm book aren't going to prescribe a way to use the software, because it's intentionally extremely flexible. Git users appreciate this, but GitHub users might lack good guidance. As another reply pointed out, this might also have its origins in the git-submodule porcelain being confusing and underutilized. Most GitHub users have probably never used submodules, don't know when a git repo would start to slow down due to size, aren't sure how to split out part of a repo while preserving history, and probably haven't thought too much about internal dependency versioning. > to me, "monorepo" implies needing special attention I think you and I are actually in total agreement, but the vast majority of corporate GitHub users have no context about where git came from, what it's good at, what it's limitations are, and how to use it for more than trunk-based development. The ideas that "Linux is a monorepo" or "monorepos are the only natural way to manage code for any project" or that git should be "fixed" to support centralization should be concerning to GH. I suspect these people don't have "monorepos" in the way that you and I are talking about them. They probably just have mid-sized repos that haven't need to be split up yet. Even if you can support those customers as they grow into monorepos without friction due to enormous technical efforts, we're failing to teach a generation of engineers how to think about their most fundamental tools. I appreciate that GitHub is trying to use technology to smooth out these points of confusion and improve git to work in every scenario, but publishing customer education materials about how to make good decisions about source code management would also help a lot. > I talk with customers weekly who want to mash dozens of independent repos (Git or otherwise) together. If they aren't going to reap any of the benefits mentioned above or elsewhere in this topic, I strongly advise against it. It sounds like you're giving good advice to the teams that you talk to, but what can I show my team that's authoritative from GitHub that says "don't mash dozens of independent repos together and then blur the lines so you can't tell what's independent anymore"? I thought this was obvious, but it's not, and I don't know how to get people to understand it. This is a particularly bad problem when your independent repos are working fine, but then there's a company-wide initiative to go "monorepo", and it's obvious in advance that the resulting monorepo won't be usable without a lot of extra work. Maybe I've just been unlucky, but every time I've had a monorepo experience, it's been exactly that approach. And, as I'm sure you can tell by this thread, I haven't had much luck in convincing other engineers that mashing all unrelated code into one repo is a silly thing to do.

anon9001 5y ago

Thanks for engaging in discussion about this. If nothing else, you're building my confidence in GitHub. > Consider also that we might not all be talking about the same thing. I think this is 90% of the confusion/disagreement in this thread. I've always thought that it's fine to use git however you want, but if you hit a bottleneck (it gets too big and becomes slow), then you split your repo along logical boundaries (usually a large library can be split out and versioned, for example). Somewhere over the last 15 years, that's changed, and the zeitgeist is now "mash dozens of independent repos into one repo" no matter the situation. Everyone in this thread that's suggested monorepos aren't the way to go has been downvoted, which caught me by surprise. > I suppose that's why I felt compelled to reply to your thread in particular -- yes, we're investing in monorepos, but no, it's not because we're trying to drive people to them. I believe you're sincere, and perhaps I was a bit too cynical about GitHub's motivations. Sorry about that, this topic is just frustrating and GH is in a position to help make things better. Do you think GitHub could offer some kind of practical guide about when to use monorepos and what their limitations are? I think part of the problem is that git's docs and the git-scm book aren't going to prescribe a way to use the software, because it's intentionally extremely flexible. Git users appreciate this, but GitHub users might lack good guidance. As another reply pointed out, this might also have its origins in the git-submodule porcelain being confusing and underutilized. Most GitHub users have probably never used submodules, don't know when a git repo would start to slow down due to size, aren't sure how to split out part of a repo while preserving history, and probably haven't thought too much about internal dependency versioning. > to me, "monorepo" implies needing special attention I think you and I are actually in total agreement, but the vast majority of corporate GitHub users have no context about where git came from, what it's good at, what it's limitations are, and how to use it for more than trunk-based development. The ideas that "Linux is a monorepo" or "monorepos are the only natural way to manage code for any project" or that git should be "fixed" to support centralization should be concerning to GH. I suspect these people don't have "monorepos" in the way that you and I are talking about them. They probably just have mid-sized repos that haven't need to be split up yet. Even if you can support those customers as they grow into monorepos without friction due to enormous technical efforts, we're failing to teach a generation of engineers how to think about their most fundamental tools. I appreciate that GitHub is trying to use technology to smooth out these points of confusion and improve git to work in every scenario, but publishing customer education materials about how to make good decisions about source code management would also help a lot. > I talk with customers weekly who want to mash dozens of independent repos (Git or otherwise) together. If they aren't going to reap any of the benefits mentioned above or elsewhere in this topic, I strongly advise against it. It sounds like you're giving good advice to the teams that you talk to, but what can I show my team that's authoritative from GitHub that says "don't mash dozens of independent repos together and then blur the lines so you can't tell what's independent anymore"? I thought this was obvious, but it's not, and I don't know how to get people to understand it. This is a particularly bad problem when your independent repos are working fine, but then there's a company-wide initiative to go "monorepo", and it's obvious in advance that the resulting monorepo won't be usable without a lot of extra work. Maybe I've just been unlucky, but every time I've had a monorepo experience, it's been exactly that approach. And, as I'm sure you can tell by this thread, I haven't had much luck in convincing other engineers that mashing all unrelated code into one repo is a silly thing to do.