4 ms·

The $XXX a business would spend on standards is insignificant compared to $XXXXX+ it has to give consultants in return for understanding how to actually comply

The $XXX a business would spend on standards is insignificant compared to $XXXXX+ it has to give consultants in return for understanding how to actually comply with those impenetrable walls of text enough to pass an audit.

Kichererbsen 5y ago
That's exactly the point: Any business that can afford to spend on standards doesn't want to change any of this, because it helps keep out disruptors.
- goblin89 5y ago
  My point was that (1) standards aren’t well-written if reading them is not enough to understand how to implement them in your business, (2) this benefits consultants (some of whom are involved with ISO, I’m not sure if possible conflicts of interest are taken care of), and (3) the proposal of this public letter does nothing to address the status quo.
number6 5y ago
As a consultant who is getting $XXXX+ for implementing the $XXX standards: most institutions could do without my consulting, but they don't because it is not the expertise they lack but the time and manpower, plus I implement this standards for a living and thus have a higher proficiency which reduces the project time by a factor of 2 + I can get some assistance on the job. But you can easily pass an audit if you actually READ the standards...
- wheelinsupial 5y ago
  > But you can easily pass an audit if you actually READ the standards... I worked in automotive manufacturing at one point. We had to follow an automotive specific extension (ISO/TS 16949 at the time) to the ISO 9001 standard in addition to a set of AIAG Automotive Core Tools (a set of 5 books). Our auditor was being audited by one of the people who was on the extension work group and the Core Tools work group. We definitely read the standards and were found to have 13 major non-conformances. We were told there are courses the working group offers to "teach the proper way to read the documents." Maybe it's different in other industries, but my experience is you have to buy the documents, buy the courses to learn to read the documents, buy the courses to learn how to do internal audits, and then maybe you'll have the knowledge to complete the certification. But as you say, it will be quicker to use a consultant, so you add on consulting fees after all of those other expenses. Then you pay annually to be audited so you can maintain the license. It's the cost of doing business and definitely had a huge ROI where I worked.
  - number6 5y ago
    Yes, the TS16949 that's a tough one. Also depends on the auditor. Sounds like yours wanted to show you how much more he knows about the Standard than you do. But Auditors is where all this Standards fall short: they have private interpretations of the Standards and sometimes you have to get back to the letters of the Standard with them... You definitely don't do that on your first audits or as an organisation which just wants to pass. As a consultant you can get a talk with the auditor and straight some things out - in the end the customer pays the bill and is able to change the auditor or the whole auditing organisation. Oh man I love this audits where you can get all nitty-gritty over the interpretation of the Standard...but most of them are straight forward. I am sorry that you had such a hard time with yours
    - wheelinsupial 5y ago
      Our auditor had to show that because he was being audited on his approach and representing his company to the AIAG auditor. It was a good experience for me. I went through some seriously easy audits and then one when the book was thrown at us, so to speak.

Kichererbsen 5y ago

That's exactly the point: Any business that can afford to spend on standards doesn't want to change any of this, because it helps keep out disruptors.

goblin89 5y ago
My point was that (1) standards aren’t well-written if reading them is not enough to understand how to implement them in your business, (2) this benefits consultants (some of whom are involved with ISO, I’m not sure if possible conflicts of interest are taken care of), and (3) the proposal of this public letter does nothing to address the status quo.

number6 5y ago

As a consultant who is getting $XXXX+ for implementing the $XXX standards: most institutions could do without my consulting, but they don't because it is not the expertise they lack but the time and manpower, plus I implement this standards for a living and thus have a higher proficiency which reduces the project time by a factor of 2 + I can get some assistance on the job. But you can easily pass an audit if you actually READ the standards...

wheelinsupial 5y ago
> But you can easily pass an audit if you actually READ the standards... I worked in automotive manufacturing at one point. We had to follow an automotive specific extension (ISO/TS 16949 at the time) to the ISO 9001 standard in addition to a set of AIAG Automotive Core Tools (a set of 5 books). Our auditor was being audited by one of the people who was on the extension work group and the Core Tools work group. We definitely read the standards and were found to have 13 major non-conformances. We were told there are courses the working group offers to "teach the proper way to read the documents." Maybe it's different in other industries, but my experience is you have to buy the documents, buy the courses to learn to read the documents, buy the courses to learn how to do internal audits, and then maybe you'll have the knowledge to complete the certification. But as you say, it will be quicker to use a consultant, so you add on consulting fees after all of those other expenses. Then you pay annually to be audited so you can maintain the license. It's the cost of doing business and definitely had a huge ROI where I worked.
- number6 5y ago
  Yes, the TS16949 that's a tough one. Also depends on the auditor. Sounds like yours wanted to show you how much more he knows about the Standard than you do. But Auditors is where all this Standards fall short: they have private interpretations of the Standards and sometimes you have to get back to the letters of the Standard with them... You definitely don't do that on your first audits or as an organisation which just wants to pass. As a consultant you can get a talk with the auditor and straight some things out - in the end the customer pays the bill and is able to change the auditor or the whole auditing organisation. Oh man I love this audits where you can get all nitty-gritty over the interpretation of the Standard...but most of them are straight forward. I am sorry that you had such a hard time with yours
  - wheelinsupial 5y ago
    Our auditor had to show that because he was being audited on his approach and representing his company to the AIAG auditor. It was a good experience for me. I went through some seriously easy audits and then one when the book was thrown at us, so to speak.