4 ms·

Native croatian speaker. This is how I'd answer the question: Đ - angel ("soft", tip of the tongue) DŽ - jeans ("hard", middle)

by zvrba 5y ago

thaumasiotes 5y ago
You think an English word might use either sound based on the sounds that surround it? (Not out of the question by any means, but not what I expected.) In your language, does a minimal pair exist that distinguishes Đ from DŽ? A minimal pair is a pair of words that sound identical except for the sound we want to contrast - in English, "sat" and "chat" are a minimal pair contrasting /s/ with /tʃ/ (or č if you prefer). English does not have any concept of a contrast between a 'soft' J and a 'hard' J (or a 'soft' "ch" or a 'hard' "ch"). (Though again, that doesn't mean we don't make a distinction - it just means that if we do, we don't realize we're doing it.) I am familiar with a similar distinction in Mandarin Chinese, where the soft sound is spelled with pinyin "j" as in beijing and the hard sound is spelled "zh" as in zhongguo, but the contrast isn't perfect -- there are no minimal pairs, and in fact there is no context which would allow a free choice between either sound. If you know the vowel that follows the sound, then you also know whether the sound will be soft or hard. Is that true for Croatian? I'm surprised at your answer wrt use of the tongue -- in Mandarin "j", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the middle, and in "zh", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the tip.
- pndy 5y ago
  Not the parent, but I think you might be interested in reading about South Slavic languages [1], palatalization of these [2], and development of Serbo-Croatian [3], as well as Gaj work on the alphabet [4]. It's easy for someone who operates on a daily basis to hear the difference between sounds and wrote it correctly but for other people, especially those who live in different language group (Germanic vs Slavic groups) might have difficulties. But that's rather obvious, innit? Đ, đ and DŽ, dž letters have counterparts in Polish in dź and dż digraphs and are used to represent same harder and softer sounds. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization_(sound_change)#Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization_(sound_change)#... 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian 4 - shttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaj's_Latin_alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaj's_Latin_alphabet
- 3np 5y ago
  > in Mandarin "j", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the middle Never realized this. And after a few minutes of tounge-hyperconscious trying, I think some of us need some serious retraining to physically pull that off.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    It is a type of distinction recognized by linguistics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminal_consonant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminal_consonant - but usually not indicated explicitly or commented on. Secret knowledge, I guess. The fact that assuming this position necessarily thrusts the tongue very far forward in the mouth explains why the Mandarin palatal consonant series (q/j/x) can only be followed by the front vowels, /i/ or /y/. If you're interested in learning to produce a foreign sound, I strongly recommend getting recordings (or live examples) to listen to and imitate. Working off a description will never quite get you all the way there.
- zvrba 5y ago
  > You think an English word might use either sound based on the sounds that surround it? I don't know. > does a minimal pair exist that distinguishes Đ from DŽ Yes. Đak - DŽak (pupil / bag). The latter is though archaic and possibly loaned from turkish. > English does not have any concept of a contrast between a 'soft' J and a 'hard' J English does not have a concept of phonetic alphabet, so that's that. Same sound has multiple realizations in writing. Though I believe that the "soft/hard" distinction is between G and J: compare Gina, gigantic and Jake, jealous. > I'm surprised at your answer wrt use of the tongue Well, it's a complex tongue position. Here you have all the sounds with their equivalents in phonetic alphabet: https://www.learncroatian.eu/blog/croatian-language-basics-dialects-alphabet-and-pronunciation https://www.learncroatian.eu/blog/croatian-language-basics-d...
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    >> English does not have any concept of a contrast between a 'soft' J and a 'hard' J > English does not have a concept of phonetic alphabet, so that's that. Same sound has multiple realizations in writing. Well, no, that doesn't matter at all. There are some sounds that English treats as being different from each other, and there are other sounds where no distinction is made, even if one might exist in reality. Spelling is an orthogonal concern. English speakers are only aware of one "J" sound, which is conventionally interpreted as the IPA /dʒ/. > I believe that the "soft/hard" distinction is between G and J: compare Gina, gigantic and Jake, jealous. English speakers do not intentionally make any distinction. But if a distinction did exist, it would have to be based on pronunciation and not spelling. It's easy to disprove the "G"/"J" theory; Gene is a man's name and Jean is a woman's name, but they are pronounced absolutely identically. The spelling is telling you the historical pronunciation of an ancestral word, which isn't relevant to the modern pronunciation of the modern word.

Native croatian speaker. This is how I'd answer the question: Đ - angel ("soft", tip of the tongue) DŽ - jeans ("hard", middle)

by zvrba 5y ago

Native croatian speaker. This is how I'd answer the question: Đ - angel ("soft", tip of the tongue) DŽ - jeans ("hard", middle)

thaumasiotes 5y ago

You think an English word might use either sound based on the sounds that surround it? (Not out of the question by any means, but not what I expected.) In your language, does a minimal pair exist that distinguishes Đ from DŽ? A minimal pair is a pair of words that sound identical except for the sound we want to contrast - in English, "sat" and "chat" are a minimal pair contrasting /s/ with /tʃ/ (or č if you prefer). English does not have any concept of a contrast between a 'soft' J and a 'hard' J (or a 'soft' "ch" or a 'hard' "ch"). (Though again, that doesn't mean we don't make a distinction - it just means that if we do, we don't realize we're doing it.) I am familiar with a similar distinction in Mandarin Chinese, where the soft sound is spelled with pinyin "j" as in beijing and the hard sound is spelled "zh" as in zhongguo, but the contrast isn't perfect -- there are no minimal pairs, and in fact there is no context which would allow a free choice between either sound. If you know the vowel that follows the sound, then you also know whether the sound will be soft or hard. Is that true for Croatian? I'm surprised at your answer wrt use of the tongue -- in Mandarin "j", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the middle, and in "zh", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the tip.

pndy 5y ago
Not the parent, but I think you might be interested in reading about South Slavic languages [1], palatalization of these [2], and development of Serbo-Croatian [3], as well as Gaj work on the alphabet [4]. It's easy for someone who operates on a daily basis to hear the difference between sounds and wrote it correctly but for other people, especially those who live in different language group (Germanic vs Slavic groups) might have difficulties. But that's rather obvious, innit? Đ, đ and DŽ, dž letters have counterparts in Polish in dź and dż digraphs and are used to represent same harder and softer sounds. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization_(sound_change)#Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization_(sound_change)#... 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian 4 - shttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaj's_Latin_alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaj's_Latin_alphabet
3np 5y ago
> in Mandarin "j", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the middle Never realized this. And after a few minutes of tounge-hyperconscious trying, I think some of us need some serious retraining to physically pull that off.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  It is a type of distinction recognized by linguistics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminal_consonant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminal_consonant - but usually not indicated explicitly or commented on. Secret knowledge, I guess. The fact that assuming this position necessarily thrusts the tongue very far forward in the mouth explains why the Mandarin palatal consonant series (q/j/x) can only be followed by the front vowels, /i/ or /y/. If you're interested in learning to produce a foreign sound, I strongly recommend getting recordings (or live examples) to listen to and imitate. Working off a description will never quite get you all the way there.
zvrba 5y ago
> You think an English word might use either sound based on the sounds that surround it? I don't know. > does a minimal pair exist that distinguishes Đ from DŽ Yes. Đak - DŽak (pupil / bag). The latter is though archaic and possibly loaned from turkish. > English does not have any concept of a contrast between a 'soft' J and a 'hard' J English does not have a concept of phonetic alphabet, so that's that. Same sound has multiple realizations in writing. Though I believe that the "soft/hard" distinction is between G and J: compare Gina, gigantic and Jake, jealous. > I'm surprised at your answer wrt use of the tongue Well, it's a complex tongue position. Here you have all the sounds with their equivalents in phonetic alphabet: https://www.learncroatian.eu/blog/croatian-language-basics-dialects-alphabet-and-pronunciation https://www.learncroatian.eu/blog/croatian-language-basics-d...
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  >> English does not have any concept of a contrast between a 'soft' J and a 'hard' J > English does not have a concept of phonetic alphabet, so that's that. Same sound has multiple realizations in writing. Well, no, that doesn't matter at all. There are some sounds that English treats as being different from each other, and there are other sounds where no distinction is made, even if one might exist in reality. Spelling is an orthogonal concern. English speakers are only aware of one "J" sound, which is conventionally interpreted as the IPA /dʒ/. > I believe that the "soft/hard" distinction is between G and J: compare Gina, gigantic and Jake, jealous. English speakers do not intentionally make any distinction. But if a distinction did exist, it would have to be based on pronunciation and not spelling. It's easy to disprove the "G"/"J" theory; Gene is a man's name and Jean is a woman's name, but they are pronounced absolutely identically. The spelling is telling you the historical pronunciation of an ancestral word, which isn't relevant to the modern pronunciation of the modern word.