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In ex Yugoslavian keyboards, back in the days of DOS 3.x, the backslash was frequently usurped by the letter Đ. It's 30 years later, I've been speaking and dre

In ex Yugoslavian keyboards, back in the days of DOS 3.x, the backslash was frequently usurped by the letter Đ. It's 30 years later, I've been speaking and dreaming and internal monologuing in English longer than in my native language (whatever it might be:) - but I still mentally read c:\Program Files\my folder\my file.txt As See colon DJ program files DJ my folder DJ my file dot tee ex tee (where DJ or Đ is closest pronounced as G in angel or Angelica though not quite)

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> (where DJ or Đ is closest pronounced as G in angel or Angelica though not quite) Would you say the English sound is closer to Đ or DŽ? Does it vary by speaker? Does Đ use the tip of the tongue, or the middle?
- zvrba 5y ago
  Native croatian speaker. This is how I'd answer the question: Đ - angel ("soft", tip of the tongue) DŽ - jeans ("hard", middle)
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    You think an English word might use either sound based on the sounds that surround it? (Not out of the question by any means, but not what I expected.) In your language, does a minimal pair exist that distinguishes Đ from DŽ? A minimal pair is a pair of words that sound identical except for the sound we want to contrast - in English, "sat" and "chat" are a minimal pair contrasting /s/ with /tʃ/ (or č if you prefer). English does not have any concept of a contrast between a 'soft' J and a 'hard' J (or a 'soft' "ch" or a 'hard' "ch"). (Though again, that doesn't mean we don't make a distinction - it just means that if we do, we don't realize we're doing it.) I am familiar with a similar distinction in Mandarin Chinese, where the soft sound is spelled with pinyin "j" as in beijing and the hard sound is spelled "zh" as in zhongguo, but the contrast isn't perfect -- there are no minimal pairs, and in fact there is no context which would allow a free choice between either sound. If you know the vowel that follows the sound, then you also know whether the sound will be soft or hard. Is that true for Croatian? I'm surprised at your answer wrt use of the tongue -- in Mandarin "j", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the middle, and in "zh", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the tip.
    - pndy 5y ago
      Not the parent, but I think you might be interested in reading about South Slavic languages [1], palatalization of these [2], and development of Serbo-Croatian [3], as well as Gaj work on the alphabet [4]. It's easy for someone who operates on a daily basis to hear the difference between sounds and wrote it correctly but for other people, especially those who live in different language group (Germanic vs Slavic groups) might have difficulties. But that's rather obvious, innit? Đ, đ and DŽ, dž letters have counterparts in Polish in dź and dż digraphs and are used to represent same harder and softer sounds. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization_(sound_change)#Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization_(sound_change)#... 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian 4 - shttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaj's_Latin_alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaj's_Latin_alphabet
    - 3np 5y ago
      > in Mandarin "j", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the middle Never realized this. And after a few minutes of tounge-hyperconscious trying, I think some of us need some serious retraining to physically pull that off.
      - thaumasiotes 5y ago
        It is a type of distinction recognized by linguistics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminal_consonant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminal_consonant - but usually not indicated explicitly or commented on. Secret knowledge, I guess. The fact that assuming this position necessarily thrusts the tongue very far forward in the mouth explains why the Mandarin palatal consonant series (q/j/x) can only be followed by the front vowels, /i/ or /y/. If you're interested in learning to produce a foreign sound, I strongly recommend getting recordings (or live examples) to listen to and imitate. Working off a description will never quite get you all the way there.
    - zvrba 5y ago
      > You think an English word might use either sound based on the sounds that surround it? I don't know. > does a minimal pair exist that distinguishes Đ from DŽ Yes. Đak - DŽak (pupil / bag). The latter is though archaic and possibly loaned from turkish. > English does not have any concept of a contrast between a 'soft' J and a 'hard' J English does not have a concept of phonetic alphabet, so that's that. Same sound has multiple realizations in writing. Though I believe that the "soft/hard" distinction is between G and J: compare Gina, gigantic and Jake, jealous. > I'm surprised at your answer wrt use of the tongue Well, it's a complex tongue position. Here you have all the sounds with their equivalents in phonetic alphabet: https://www.learncroatian.eu/blog/croatian-language-basics-dialects-alphabet-and-pronunciation https://www.learncroatian.eu/blog/croatian-language-basics-d...
- NikolaNovak 5y ago
  I would say it's actually closer to DŽ; I just couldn't figure out the English equivalent late at night :-> I think Angelica, or perhaps Jeans or Jacob may be closer to Đ? >>Does it vary by speaker? Yes; and not only formally - it many parts of ex-Yu, a lot of people can't really distinguish between č and ć; and also dž and đ. (my dad has spoken the language(s) as a native for 75 years, yet though much more of a Canadian who barely remembers my initial tongue, I can still spell words like ćevapčići more consistently than him - some people just have a correct feel and others don't)
vasac 5y ago
Haha, and I thought I'm the only madmen who still occasionally uses Đ when spelling paths. At late 80s I had a Hercules graphics card where you could pick ASCII/YUSCII by flipping the switch on the back of the card.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> (where DJ or Đ is closest pronounced as G in angel or Angelica though not quite) Would you say the English sound is closer to Đ or DŽ? Does it vary by speaker? Does Đ use the tip of the tongue, or the middle?

zvrba 5y ago
Native croatian speaker. This is how I'd answer the question: Đ - angel ("soft", tip of the tongue) DŽ - jeans ("hard", middle)
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  You think an English word might use either sound based on the sounds that surround it? (Not out of the question by any means, but not what I expected.) In your language, does a minimal pair exist that distinguishes Đ from DŽ? A minimal pair is a pair of words that sound identical except for the sound we want to contrast - in English, "sat" and "chat" are a minimal pair contrasting /s/ with /tʃ/ (or č if you prefer). English does not have any concept of a contrast between a 'soft' J and a 'hard' J (or a 'soft' "ch" or a 'hard' "ch"). (Though again, that doesn't mean we don't make a distinction - it just means that if we do, we don't realize we're doing it.) I am familiar with a similar distinction in Mandarin Chinese, where the soft sound is spelled with pinyin "j" as in beijing and the hard sound is spelled "zh" as in zhongguo, but the contrast isn't perfect -- there are no minimal pairs, and in fact there is no context which would allow a free choice between either sound. If you know the vowel that follows the sound, then you also know whether the sound will be soft or hard. Is that true for Croatian? I'm surprised at your answer wrt use of the tongue -- in Mandarin "j", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the middle, and in "zh", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the tip.
  - pndy 5y ago
    Not the parent, but I think you might be interested in reading about South Slavic languages [1], palatalization of these [2], and development of Serbo-Croatian [3], as well as Gaj work on the alphabet [4]. It's easy for someone who operates on a daily basis to hear the difference between sounds and wrote it correctly but for other people, especially those who live in different language group (Germanic vs Slavic groups) might have difficulties. But that's rather obvious, innit? Đ, đ and DŽ, dž letters have counterparts in Polish in dź and dż digraphs and are used to represent same harder and softer sounds. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization_(sound_change)#Slavic_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization_(sound_change)#... 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian 4 - shttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaj's_Latin_alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaj's_Latin_alphabet
  - 3np 5y ago
    > in Mandarin "j", the part of the tongue that makes contact with the roof of the mouth is the middle Never realized this. And after a few minutes of tounge-hyperconscious trying, I think some of us need some serious retraining to physically pull that off.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      It is a type of distinction recognized by linguistics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminal_consonant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminal_consonant - but usually not indicated explicitly or commented on. Secret knowledge, I guess. The fact that assuming this position necessarily thrusts the tongue very far forward in the mouth explains why the Mandarin palatal consonant series (q/j/x) can only be followed by the front vowels, /i/ or /y/. If you're interested in learning to produce a foreign sound, I strongly recommend getting recordings (or live examples) to listen to and imitate. Working off a description will never quite get you all the way there.
  - zvrba 5y ago
    > You think an English word might use either sound based on the sounds that surround it? I don't know. > does a minimal pair exist that distinguishes Đ from DŽ Yes. Đak - DŽak (pupil / bag). The latter is though archaic and possibly loaned from turkish. > English does not have any concept of a contrast between a 'soft' J and a 'hard' J English does not have a concept of phonetic alphabet, so that's that. Same sound has multiple realizations in writing. Though I believe that the "soft/hard" distinction is between G and J: compare Gina, gigantic and Jake, jealous. > I'm surprised at your answer wrt use of the tongue Well, it's a complex tongue position. Here you have all the sounds with their equivalents in phonetic alphabet: https://www.learncroatian.eu/blog/croatian-language-basics-dialects-alphabet-and-pronunciation https://www.learncroatian.eu/blog/croatian-language-basics-d...
NikolaNovak 5y ago
I would say it's actually closer to DŽ; I just couldn't figure out the English equivalent late at night :-> I think Angelica, or perhaps Jeans or Jacob may be closer to Đ? >>Does it vary by speaker? Yes; and not only formally - it many parts of ex-Yu, a lot of people can't really distinguish between č and ć; and also dž and đ. (my dad has spoken the language(s) as a native for 75 years, yet though much more of a Canadian who barely remembers my initial tongue, I can still spell words like ćevapčići more consistently than him - some people just have a correct feel and others don't)

vasac 5y ago

Haha, and I thought I'm the only madmen who still occasionally uses Đ when spelling paths. At late 80s I had a Hercules graphics card where you could pick ASCII/YUSCII by flipping the switch on the back of the card.