4 ms·

Seems like hypocrisy considering Electrek routinely ignores FCEVs (hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles), which are Toyota's apparent future preference. Among

• phicoh 5y ago
  Maybe there is the thing that hardly any hydrogen is created from non-fossil sources. Given the challenge of bringing enough green electricity online, producing enough green hydrogen for industry, it is extremely unclear how we can afford to waste a lot of green electricity in producing green hydrogen for cars. Of course, by the time customers find out about the price difference they will dump their FCEV cars. So at the moment, hydrogen is produced from methane. And indirectly produces as much CO2 as ICE cars. Due to their enormous efficiency, BEV cars can indirectly produce less CO2 even is electricy is generated from fossile fuels. And with enough nuclear, wind or solar, CO2 can be a lot less.
  • Hypx_ 5y ago
    FCEVs will end up being far cheaper than BEVs. Hydrogen production doesn't not have the same uptime requirements that directly electrification requires. It's quite likely that green hydrogen will be cheaper than grid electricity pretty soon. I think people will find out that make green hydrogen is easy, but green electricity is not.
    • phicoh 5y ago
      That is unlikely because cheap hydrogen can be used to stabilize the grid. So with green hydrogen, the grid consists of cheap green energy or electricity from hydrogen. In areas with lots of solar, you can charge your car during the day and forget about more expensive electricity during the night. In contrast, a FCEV always pays a higher price because hydrogen needs to be produced from green electricity and the fuel cell also has significant losses. So with hydrogen you can never be lucky.
      • Hypx_ 5y ago
        If you're making grid electricity with hydrogen, it will be as expensive or more so than something that directly uses the hydrogen. You also are going to be forced to charge during the day, the exact opposite of how people use their EVs. Finally, hydrogen will make up the majority of power production for those long stretches of low wind and cloudiness. In all likelihood, grids will be built around the existence of hydrogen storage, not the other way around.
        • phicoh 5y ago
          People will quickly figure out what is cheaper. And that is using electricity as it is generated. Second best, if it is predictable, store electricity in batteries. Most likely a home that has enough solar panels, can store energy temporarily in a house battery and then transfer it to a car cheaper than having the car run on hydrogen. Any FCEV has a battery that in theory can be charged from the grid. So FCEV owners are also interested in charging their cars at work. Making grid electricity with hydrogen is expensive, but is only need for a fraction of the time. So on average you come out ahead. There may in the future be an interesting difference in regions. Some regions can combine hydro, wind, solar, etc. and have cheap electricity. Other regions are not so lucky.
• theshrike79 5y ago
  FCEV cars (not trucks) are prototypes pretty much. There are way too many problems to solve before they become an actual solution to anything. A station that can fuel 2 FCEVs every 15-20 minutes costs around $2 million. The cost of driving with hydrogen is completely bonkers compared to any other power source currently in use (natural gas, electricity, gasoline, diesel). For long-haul trucks, ships etc. hydrogen might be a good solution. Currently the best thing we can use hydrogen for is as a battery for renewables. Use excess energy to generate hydrogen and store it on-site. When production dips, convert the hydrogen to electricity on-site and feed it back to the grid.
  • Youden 5y ago
    I think the viability of FCEVs is certainly up for discussion, my point is mostly that Elektrek accuses Toyota of dismissing BEVs, which are Electrek's preference while itself dismissing FCEVs, which are Toyota's preference. But on the specific points you raise, I agree that FCEVs are at a very early stage. You can buy them and they function but refueling stations are rare and unreliable, so they're not yet very practical. Regarding the costs of a fueling station, the hope is that as the technology is more mature, the costs will decrease substantially. The equipment isn't anywhere close to being mass produced the way it is for gas stations and BEV charging stations. But FCEVs are a young technology and if (and I know it's a big if) we can work around their issues, I can see them being a very compelling alternative or compliment to BEVs. For example stick a hydrogen tank in the back of a BEV and you can use the batteries for your daily commute and hydrogen for longer journeys.
    • Hypx_ 5y ago
      Most of the those problems are fully solved. In fact the the biggest event in green energy is pushing back from the anti-hydrogen nonsense and just start investing. A good example of this is Fortescue industry and JCB. They've pretty much stopped caring about the criticisms and have begun investing billions of dollars.
    • theshrike79 5y ago
      > Regarding the costs of a fueling station, the hope is that as the technology is more mature, the costs will decrease substantially. The equipment isn't anywhere close to being mass produced the way it is for gas stations and BEV charging stations. A good chunk of the costs involved in getting a H2 station running is regulation and licensing. You can't just store 500kg of pressurised hydrogen on any parking lot. You need permits and licenses and all that fun stuff. You also need to maintain it, actually bring the H2 to the station from somewhere etc. An EV charging station is pretty much a fancy extension cord, you need a HV certified electrician, a backhoe and some cables along with the charger units. You don't need permits from anyone except maybe from the power company. Cost for a 22kW AC charger is maybe 1k per unit, HVDC units are 20-50k a pop, depending on the amount of power. Wal-mart, for example, could have 40 350kW HVDC chargers (complete overkill btw) on their parking lot for the price of one H2 station, that can serve 2 cars every 5-20 minutes. Or they could electrify their whole parking lot with 22kW destination chargers and still have money left over. Hydrogen will have its day, but there are WAY too many hurdles for it to cross before it becomes something regular people can have in their cars. Hydrogen trucks for long haul trips, yes. Hydrogen powered cargo ships, yes. Hydrogen for renewable energy storage, yes. If we want H2 to become a valid choice for normal family cars, someone needs to put up billions to get a proper refueling network up and running and keep it running. Which needs a reliable, cheap, source of hydrogen and a fleet of trucks. Maybe a Hydrogen-Musk will appear some day? =)