6 ms·

What do you do if someone wants to sleep on the street? Where do you build these dorms? Are there barriers to living in these dorms? Sobriety requirements, j

by mulmen 5y ago

What do you do if someone wants to sleep on the street? Where do you build these dorms? Are there barriers to living in these dorms? Sobriety requirements, job searching, etc? We should definitely try to solve this but I don't think it is simple at all.

cheriot 5y ago
> What do you do if someone wants to sleep on the street? When all of the available shelters are full this is not a relevant question. > Where do you build these dorms? Near transit so people that can't afford a car can get around. There's not a shortage of underutilized land in west coast cities. > Are there barriers to living in these dorms? Sobriety requirements, job searching, etc? no, none of those situations are improved by leaving someone outside. > We should definitely try to solve this but I don't think it is simple at all. There are complex problems in our society, but not having enough bedrooms has a simple solution: build more bedrooms. Someone is going to have a better chance finding a job if they get a good night sleep and have a place to shower.
- mulmen 5y ago
  > When all of the available shelters are full this is not a relevant question. It is relevant when we are talking about building more housing. Why build something if people won't use it? > Near transit so people that can't afford a car can get around. There's not a shortage of underutilized land in west coast cities. Underutilized land near transit? What do you do about the NIMBYs? > no, none of those situations are improved by leaving someone outside. Of course, but do you want to live in a shelter with people doing drugs? Should there be some that are drug friendly and some that aren't? > There are complex problems in our society, but not having enough bedrooms has a simple solution: build more bedrooms. Actually providing public housing isn't simple though. We have a long history of trying all kinds of approaches that didn't work for whatever reason. There's no simple answer. > Someone is going to have a better chance finding a job if they get a good night sleep and have a place to shower. This assumes they want to find a job though.
  - jljljl 5y ago
    > It is relevant when we are talking about building more housing. Why build something if people won't use it? If the shelters are full, it's clear people are using them. If we start seeing vacancies in shelters, then we can worry about this.
    - mulmen 5y ago
      I don’t doubt we need more space now. Vacancies in shelters would suggest we created too much supply, which would be a waste of resources. I prefer to take the approach of understanding the current needs and working to address all of those needs.
      - vineyardmike 5y ago
        > I prefer to take the approach of understanding the current needs and working to address all of those needs. So what is your proposed solution?
        mulmen 5y ago
        I asked up-thread if dorm style housing should have restrictions. That's a genuine question. I don't have the answers. It is not acceptable that we have any number of people sleeping on the street. I realize we can't simply prohibit that. But if we are going to reclaim our public spaces we need solutions that work for everyone. There is never going to be one simple solution to that. So yeah, build more housing. But what kind? Some of it should simply be affordable housing for gainfully employed people. Some should be dorm style for emergency stays. Some should have a focus on rehab. Some should have a focus on finding employment. There's probably a need for a mix. But we definitely need some places that are safe for vulnerable populations which have more restrictions and different resources than low-barrier-to-entry based shelters or housing. Should we try to put addicts on a rehab path? Are we willing to ignore that problem to solve homelessness? I don't know. I think it's worth having a conversation. It's complicated and messy and unclear.
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
klyrs 5y ago
> What do you do if someone wants to sleep on the street? This describes an incredibly miniscule number of people. There are a lot of problems with existing shelters (as mentioned quite a few times in thia thread) so currently it's hard to disentangle "wants to sleep on the streets" from "doesn't want the available alternatives." Yeah, there probably are a few folks like this. Having an oversupply of 1% isn't going to break the bank.
- mulmen 5y ago
  That doesn’t answer the question. I’m not opposed to building more shelter space. But what do you do with the people who don’t want to stay there? Do you make it non-optional? Do you just accept that there will always be some people living on the street? At what point can a camping ban in public parks be reinstated and enforced? Can it ever be? Should it?
  - sdenton4 5y ago
    You're on hacker news. The first rule of optimization is to /benchmark and profile first/ and then work on the part of the problem that will give you the biggest wins. Don't just work on the imagined problem, because you will usually be working on the wrong thing.
    - mulmen 5y ago
      I thought hackernews was a place for thoughtful conversation. How should we optimize solutions to homelessness? Is there some ideal amount of homelessness? Have we already reached it? Recall that this thread started with a comment offering a two part solution that does not address an unwillingness to stay in shelters.
  - forgotmypw17 5y ago
    I think that camping should be legitimized and allowed. For example, I saw in LA camping areas being cleaned by city workers peacefully (with a token police car watching over) and it seemed like a nice middle ground.
pboutros 5y ago
_What if they want to sleep on the street?_ Let's start by sheltering as many people as we can, and when our problem becomes "too many empty beds", then we can move on to that problem. _Where do we build them?_ I bet there are choices we can make that house 100+ people for every 1 person who is mildly inconvenienced. _Are there barriers to living in these dorms?_ No.
- mulmen 5y ago
  Homelessness is not a single problem. We can't pretend there is a single solution. Reality is more complex than just saying "build beds" and not adding any rules or guidelines. Why should recovering addicts be forced to live in a setting where they are tempted by drugs? Why shouldn't they be given a chance to live in a drug-free setting? Why should victims of abuse be forced to live near potential abusers? Shouldn't we consider their needs? Clearly we need shelters suited to the needs of individuals. But what are those needs, and what do we do if someone refuses the opportunity? I don't think "ignore them" is a satisfactory answer.
  - pboutros 5y ago
    Nobody in these threads is saying that housing them is the silver bullet. But shelter is part of the foundation of a human's hierarchy of needs, and being anything but single-minded about people's right to shelter distracts from helping them obtain it.
    - mulmen 5y ago
      That’s an absurd statement. As you say, there is no silver bullet. In other words there is no single-threaded solution. We have to do better.

by mulmen 5y ago

cheriot 5y ago

> What do you do if someone wants to sleep on the street? When all of the available shelters are full this is not a relevant question. > Where do you build these dorms? Near transit so people that can't afford a car can get around. There's not a shortage of underutilized land in west coast cities. > Are there barriers to living in these dorms? Sobriety requirements, job searching, etc? no, none of those situations are improved by leaving someone outside. > We should definitely try to solve this but I don't think it is simple at all. There are complex problems in our society, but not having enough bedrooms has a simple solution: build more bedrooms. Someone is going to have a better chance finding a job if they get a good night sleep and have a place to shower.

mulmen 5y ago
> When all of the available shelters are full this is not a relevant question. It is relevant when we are talking about building more housing. Why build something if people won't use it? > Near transit so people that can't afford a car can get around. There's not a shortage of underutilized land in west coast cities. Underutilized land near transit? What do you do about the NIMBYs? > no, none of those situations are improved by leaving someone outside. Of course, but do you want to live in a shelter with people doing drugs? Should there be some that are drug friendly and some that aren't? > There are complex problems in our society, but not having enough bedrooms has a simple solution: build more bedrooms. Actually providing public housing isn't simple though. We have a long history of trying all kinds of approaches that didn't work for whatever reason. There's no simple answer. > Someone is going to have a better chance finding a job if they get a good night sleep and have a place to shower. This assumes they want to find a job though.
- jljljl 5y ago
  > It is relevant when we are talking about building more housing. Why build something if people won't use it? If the shelters are full, it's clear people are using them. If we start seeing vacancies in shelters, then we can worry about this.
  - mulmen 5y ago
    I don’t doubt we need more space now. Vacancies in shelters would suggest we created too much supply, which would be a waste of resources. I prefer to take the approach of understanding the current needs and working to address all of those needs.
    - vineyardmike 5y ago
      > I prefer to take the approach of understanding the current needs and working to address all of those needs. So what is your proposed solution?
      - mulmen 5y ago
        I asked up-thread if dorm style housing should have restrictions. That's a genuine question. I don't have the answers. It is not acceptable that we have any number of people sleeping on the street. I realize we can't simply prohibit that. But if we are going to reclaim our public spaces we need solutions that work for everyone. There is never going to be one simple solution to that. So yeah, build more housing. But what kind? Some of it should simply be affordable housing for gainfully employed people. Some should be dorm style for emergency stays. Some should have a focus on rehab. Some should have a focus on finding employment. There's probably a need for a mix. But we definitely need some places that are safe for vulnerable populations which have more restrictions and different resources than low-barrier-to-entry based shelters or housing. Should we try to put addicts on a rehab path? Are we willing to ignore that problem to solve homelessness? I don't know. I think it's worth having a conversation. It's complicated and messy and unclear.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago

klyrs 5y ago

> What do you do if someone wants to sleep on the street? This describes an incredibly miniscule number of people. There are a lot of problems with existing shelters (as mentioned quite a few times in thia thread) so currently it's hard to disentangle "wants to sleep on the streets" from "doesn't want the available alternatives." Yeah, there probably are a few folks like this. Having an oversupply of 1% isn't going to break the bank.

mulmen 5y ago
That doesn’t answer the question. I’m not opposed to building more shelter space. But what do you do with the people who don’t want to stay there? Do you make it non-optional? Do you just accept that there will always be some people living on the street? At what point can a camping ban in public parks be reinstated and enforced? Can it ever be? Should it?
- sdenton4 5y ago
  You're on hacker news. The first rule of optimization is to /benchmark and profile first/ and then work on the part of the problem that will give you the biggest wins. Don't just work on the imagined problem, because you will usually be working on the wrong thing.
  - mulmen 5y ago
    I thought hackernews was a place for thoughtful conversation. How should we optimize solutions to homelessness? Is there some ideal amount of homelessness? Have we already reached it? Recall that this thread started with a comment offering a two part solution that does not address an unwillingness to stay in shelters.
- forgotmypw17 5y ago
  I think that camping should be legitimized and allowed. For example, I saw in LA camping areas being cleaned by city workers peacefully (with a token police car watching over) and it seemed like a nice middle ground.

pboutros 5y ago

_What if they want to sleep on the street?_ Let's start by sheltering as many people as we can, and when our problem becomes "too many empty beds", then we can move on to that problem. _Where do we build them?_ I bet there are choices we can make that house 100+ people for every 1 person who is mildly inconvenienced. _Are there barriers to living in these dorms?_ No.

mulmen 5y ago
Homelessness is not a single problem. We can't pretend there is a single solution. Reality is more complex than just saying "build beds" and not adding any rules or guidelines. Why should recovering addicts be forced to live in a setting where they are tempted by drugs? Why shouldn't they be given a chance to live in a drug-free setting? Why should victims of abuse be forced to live near potential abusers? Shouldn't we consider their needs? Clearly we need shelters suited to the needs of individuals. But what are those needs, and what do we do if someone refuses the opportunity? I don't think "ignore them" is a satisfactory answer.
- pboutros 5y ago
  Nobody in these threads is saying that housing them is the silver bullet. But shelter is part of the foundation of a human's hierarchy of needs, and being anything but single-minded about people's right to shelter distracts from helping them obtain it.
  - mulmen 5y ago
    That’s an absurd statement. As you say, there is no silver bullet. In other words there is no single-threaded solution. We have to do better.