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I'm not sure about Europe, but certainly in Canada, even the very best of our train service (Toronto <-> Montreal) struggles to compete on convenience. Flight t

I'm not sure about Europe, but certainly in Canada, even the very best of our train service (Toronto <-> Montreal) struggles to compete on convenience. Flight time for that route is 80 mins vs just under 5hrs for the "express" train that still makes 5 intermediate stops. And those are on twinned, dedicated passenger tracks where you never have to wait on a siding for a freight train to go by in the other direction, like you do with the Toronto -> Vancouver train that takes multiple days end to end. Anyway, they keep studying HSR for the route, so much so that a prominent Canadian comedian made a joke video about it almost a decade ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W32klYkTxCQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W32klYkTxCQ But it's definitely a chicken and egg thing; it'll never gain significant market share under current conditions, but no politician can justify the money required to properly build HSR with current ridership numbers. But of course billions [1] for a new toll highway directly through protected greenbelt farmland (Hwy 413)? Ram it all through! Will it lose money and eventually be sold off to a foreign interest for pennies on the dollar similar to how Hwy 407 was twenty years ago? Probably! [1]: Even without accounting for a likely sell-off, the gov't of Ontario has been super cagey about the planned costs of 413: https://www.thestar.com/business/2021/10/08/the-hugely-controversial-highway-413-will-cost-taxpayers-billions-but-just-how-much-the-province-wont-say.html https://www.thestar.com/business/2021/10/08/the-hugely-contr...

bregma 5y ago
The tracks between Toronto and Montreal are owned by CN and freight has priority over VIA. VIA trains are often delayed having to wait for freight trains to clear and can only be scheduled for times and speed that do not interfere with freight. It takes 3 days to travel the 4500 km of rail from Toronto to Vancouver because the first 1500 km are through muskeg and around lakes where building straight, flat, protected 200 km/h high-speed tracks is just not an attainable option. Even if you managed 200 km/h the entire way, it's still 2 days travelling. Planes travel about 800 km/h and can go in a relatively straight line without fear of a moose or a washout. It's 5 hours Toronto to Vancouver and 4.5 hours the other way because of tail winds.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  I used to somewhat regularly take Toronto <-> Kingston, and I don't believe I was ever delayed by freight on that leg. Maybe the CN ownership prevents them from doing other kinds of upgrades on them, but they seem to get pretty decent priority during the day, particularly compared with the Toronto -> Vancouver route where you can sit on a siding for 4 hours. And it's not even really a matter of priority; the issue is that the siding is only long enough to accommodate the passenger train— the freight train going the other way is way, way longer. In any case, I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested HSR for the train out west. VIA has simply embraced that it will always be slow and impractical, and they market and price it accordingly— it's supposed to be an experience, like going on a cruise, not a practical means of getting to a destination.
WastingMyTime89 5y ago
> And those are on twinned, dedicated passenger tracks where you never have to wait on a siding for a freight train to go by in the other direction In Europe passengers trains have priority over freight trains of which there are very little anyway. Freight mostly goes by road while trains are mostly used to transport passengers. It is very different from how the network is used in North America.
- sofixa 5y ago
  That's not entirely true - rail freight in Europe is widely used, but usually uses different lines ( e.g. the old Paris-Lille line is used exclusively for freight, while the new high speed one is for passenger trains only), and yes, it has lower priority when its shared. However, according to statistics i found, rail freight in the EU is at 17% for 2019[0], while in the US it's at 9%[1] for 2017. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Freight_transport_statistics_-_modal_split https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... https://www.bts.gov/topics/freight-transportation/freight-shipments-mode https://www.bts.gov/topics/freight-transportation/freight-sh...

bregma 5y ago

The tracks between Toronto and Montreal are owned by CN and freight has priority over VIA. VIA trains are often delayed having to wait for freight trains to clear and can only be scheduled for times and speed that do not interfere with freight. It takes 3 days to travel the 4500 km of rail from Toronto to Vancouver because the first 1500 km are through muskeg and around lakes where building straight, flat, protected 200 km/h high-speed tracks is just not an attainable option. Even if you managed 200 km/h the entire way, it's still 2 days travelling. Planes travel about 800 km/h and can go in a relatively straight line without fear of a moose or a washout. It's 5 hours Toronto to Vancouver and 4.5 hours the other way because of tail winds.

mikepurvis 5y ago
I used to somewhat regularly take Toronto <-> Kingston, and I don't believe I was ever delayed by freight on that leg. Maybe the CN ownership prevents them from doing other kinds of upgrades on them, but they seem to get pretty decent priority during the day, particularly compared with the Toronto -> Vancouver route where you can sit on a siding for 4 hours. And it's not even really a matter of priority; the issue is that the siding is only long enough to accommodate the passenger train— the freight train going the other way is way, way longer. In any case, I don't think anyone has ever seriously suggested HSR for the train out west. VIA has simply embraced that it will always be slow and impractical, and they market and price it accordingly— it's supposed to be an experience, like going on a cruise, not a practical means of getting to a destination.

WastingMyTime89 5y ago

> And those are on twinned, dedicated passenger tracks where you never have to wait on a siding for a freight train to go by in the other direction In Europe passengers trains have priority over freight trains of which there are very little anyway. Freight mostly goes by road while trains are mostly used to transport passengers. It is very different from how the network is used in North America.

sofixa 5y ago
That's not entirely true - rail freight in Europe is widely used, but usually uses different lines ( e.g. the old Paris-Lille line is used exclusively for freight, while the new high speed one is for passenger trains only), and yes, it has lower priority when its shared. However, according to statistics i found, rail freight in the EU is at 17% for 2019[0], while in the US it's at 9%[1] for 2017. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Freight_transport_statistics_-_modal_split https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... https://www.bts.gov/topics/freight-transportation/freight-shipments-mode https://www.bts.gov/topics/freight-transportation/freight-sh...