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Planes don't have to pay any fuel taxes in Germany and other things. The government-owned train company "Deutsche Bahn" increased the prices shortly after gover

Planes don't have to pay any fuel taxes in Germany and other things. The government-owned train company "Deutsche Bahn" increased the prices shortly after government lowered taxes on train tickets. For fuel and electric, trains still have to pay full taxes. So not suprising that planes a cheaper with better tax conditions.

goodpoint 5y ago
Also, the environmental impact of planes is not accounted in the cost. Not to mention the ethical implications around sourcing oil-derived fuel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_war
- jhgb 5y ago
  And with a six-fold difference in carbon footprint of traveling between flying and taking a train, that's borderline criminal.
  - runj__ 5y ago
    I know you really don't mean it but... Criminal? As lover of flying I might have my feathers ruffled but there's certainly other pros to flying (the view, the feeling of takeoff). Maybe I'm just trying to justify my love of flying, still though.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      Well, maybe the criminality isn't obvious in your own life (or mine). But to a person who lives on, say, Tuvalu, I'd imagine it's a lot more obvious, even if it is "death by a billion small cuts".
    - jhgb 5y ago
      So "lovers of flying" should just push environmental costs onto other people not just by not paying carbon taxes, but even by paying no fuel taxes whatsoever? And why don't I "mean it"? As far as I know, there are already some investigations in progress against major oil companies.
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      Polluting it's like firing a shotgun with tiny bullets in the air. People are being killed by pollution, both directly and indirectly. But the bullets are invisible and the financial interests are very big so most people accept it as a necessary evil...
rsj_hn 5y ago
> Planes don't have to pay any fuel taxes in Germany and other things > For fuel and electric, trains still have to pay full taxes. So not suprising that planes a cheaper with better tax conditions. Aviation is heavily taxed in Europe and Rail is heavily subsidized. One fact taken out of context shouldn't be used to paint a picture that is the opposite of this basic reality. The problem with taxing aviation fuel is that EU directives make it hard for a country to tax fuel on cross border flights[1] (you can tax domestic flights, but almost all flights in the EU are cross border). Therefore what European nations do instead is apply exit charges to flights as a special aviation tax. They still collect the money, but as a departure tax, not as a tax on aviation fuel. Those exit charges were just increased in 2019. It's just a lot easier to add a departure tax than go through all the bilateral tax-agreements with other EU nations to impose a tax on aviation fuel for all flights out of Germany, so this is really an issue of minimizing paperwork rather than not taxing aviation. And Aviation exit charges are higher in Germany than in any other EU nation - each passenger pays an average of 33 euros per flight leaving Germany[5], from 13 euros for short-haul to 60 euros for long-haul. (Britain has higher exit charges, and because it's not in the EU, it is able to tax aviation fuel pumped in its own borders). And of course there are already taxes on carbon in the EU, so not sure why there should be a special singling out of one particular use, just because it gets some people riled up. Those taxes have to be paid by aviation fuel producers, so they still go into the cost. Deutsche Ban, on the other hand, is heavily subsidized -- they are getting a special covid subsidy 6 Billion euros[3] atop regular subsidies over 11 billion[4] and an extra 50 billion euro subsidy for long term capex[2]. [1] https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2019_02_CE_Delft_Taxing_Aviation_Fuels_EU.pdf https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2021... [2] https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-inject-extra-50-billion-into-deutsche-bahn-rail-network-reports/a-48043781 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-inject-extra-50-billion-int... [3] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-deutsche-bahn-bailout/german-government-announces-6-billion-rescue-package-for-rail-operator-idUSKBN2322CH https://www.reuters.com/article/us-deutsche-bahn-bailout/ger... [4] https://economics21.org/html/europes-flawed-addiction-to-rail.html https://economics21.org/html/europes-flawed-addiction-to-rai... [5] https://www.fccaviation.com/regulation/germany/aviation-tax https://www.fccaviation.com/regulation/germany/aviation-tax
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

goodpoint 5y ago

Also, the environmental impact of planes is not accounted in the cost. Not to mention the ethical implications around sourcing oil-derived fuel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_war

jhgb 5y ago
And with a six-fold difference in carbon footprint of traveling between flying and taking a train, that's borderline criminal.
- runj__ 5y ago
  I know you really don't mean it but... Criminal? As lover of flying I might have my feathers ruffled but there's certainly other pros to flying (the view, the feeling of takeoff). Maybe I'm just trying to justify my love of flying, still though.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    Well, maybe the criminality isn't obvious in your own life (or mine). But to a person who lives on, say, Tuvalu, I'd imagine it's a lot more obvious, even if it is "death by a billion small cuts".
  - jhgb 5y ago
    So "lovers of flying" should just push environmental costs onto other people not just by not paying carbon taxes, but even by paying no fuel taxes whatsoever? And why don't I "mean it"? As far as I know, there are already some investigations in progress against major oil companies.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    Polluting it's like firing a shotgun with tiny bullets in the air. People are being killed by pollution, both directly and indirectly. But the bullets are invisible and the financial interests are very big so most people accept it as a necessary evil...

rsj_hn 5y ago

> Planes don't have to pay any fuel taxes in Germany and other things > For fuel and electric, trains still have to pay full taxes. So not suprising that planes a cheaper with better tax conditions. Aviation is heavily taxed in Europe and Rail is heavily subsidized. One fact taken out of context shouldn't be used to paint a picture that is the opposite of this basic reality. The problem with taxing aviation fuel is that EU directives make it hard for a country to tax fuel on cross border flights[1] (you can tax domestic flights, but almost all flights in the EU are cross border). Therefore what European nations do instead is apply exit charges to flights as a special aviation tax. They still collect the money, but as a departure tax, not as a tax on aviation fuel. Those exit charges were just increased in 2019. It's just a lot easier to add a departure tax than go through all the bilateral tax-agreements with other EU nations to impose a tax on aviation fuel for all flights out of Germany, so this is really an issue of minimizing paperwork rather than not taxing aviation. And Aviation exit charges are higher in Germany than in any other EU nation - each passenger pays an average of 33 euros per flight leaving Germany[5], from 13 euros for short-haul to 60 euros for long-haul. (Britain has higher exit charges, and because it's not in the EU, it is able to tax aviation fuel pumped in its own borders). And of course there are already taxes on carbon in the EU, so not sure why there should be a special singling out of one particular use, just because it gets some people riled up. Those taxes have to be paid by aviation fuel producers, so they still go into the cost. Deutsche Ban, on the other hand, is heavily subsidized -- they are getting a special covid subsidy 6 Billion euros[3] atop regular subsidies over 11 billion[4] and an extra 50 billion euro subsidy for long term capex[2]. [1] https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/2019_02_CE_Delft_Taxing_Aviation_Fuels_EU.pdf https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2021... [2] https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-inject-extra-50-billion-into-deutsche-bahn-rail-network-reports/a-48043781 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-inject-extra-50-billion-int... [3] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-deutsche-bahn-bailout/german-government-announces-6-billion-rescue-package-for-rail-operator-idUSKBN2322CH https://www.reuters.com/article/us-deutsche-bahn-bailout/ger... [4] https://economics21.org/html/europes-flawed-addiction-to-rail.html https://economics21.org/html/europes-flawed-addiction-to-rai... [5] https://www.fccaviation.com/regulation/germany/aviation-tax https://www.fccaviation.com/regulation/germany/aviation-tax

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago