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What do you think of issues that have a much bigger impact though, like people giving up or greatly reducing meat+fish consumption, flying and private transpor

What do you think of issues that have a much bigger impact though, like people giving up or greatly reducing meat+fish consumption, flying and private transport? I agree the plastic straws issue is a token gesture. If people really care about sealife, they should stop giving money to companies that are destroying the ocean with overfishing (which also produces lots of plastic waste) and stop eating sealife. This recent article is interesting. It talks about how many people aren't willing to change their own lifestyle habits (i.e. plastic straws vs actual sacrifices): https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/07/few-willing-to-change-lifestyle-climate-survey https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/07/few-will.... "Only 23% felt that reducing plane travel and charging more for products that did not respect environmental norms were important to preserve the planet, while banning fossil fuel vehicles (22%) and reducing meat consumption (18%) and international trade (17%) were seen as even lower priorities.”

readonthegoapp 5y ago
i think consumer-driven consumption choices are worthless, or nearly-worthless. paper straws, electric cars, etc. etc. etc. -- all worthless or nearly worthless, and probably worse in many ways. there are a few reasons for that. one is -- i don't know what the economic principle is called -- but probably something like, like 'equilibrium' -- if you don't buy that car, i will. also, the Jevons Paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox and a few other things. there is, for instance, a drop in meat consumption around the world, and it seems to be caused largely by people prefering to have fewer heart attacks. that's good for a bunch of reasons, including that it happens to be good for the global warming cause. but has global warming decreased? or even stopped accelerating? i don't think so. most Americans probably think that the world we live in is largely one brought about by consumer choice -- as in, the options made available to us were driven by 'the market', which may or may not include consumer choice/sentiment. educated folks know that is not true. so, the fact that people don't want to pay taxes, or die, or experience extreme weather due to global warming -- it doesn't matter -- it's irrelevant -- what the state/government and earth require, we will abide. so, either most of the remaining oil/gas reserves stay underground, or most of us will die. probably not 'us' who read HN, just 'us' poor people who live in India, Africa, Saudi Arabia/Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan, anywhere near the equator, etc. there could still be a miracle - and that's what we're working for right now - maybe we'll build a million nuclear reactors and they won't blow up and kill us all, or maybe we'll block out the sun for a few years and that will only kill a couple billion people, etc. - but the whole thing about people not wanting to 'sacrifice' for global warming - irrelevant - they and we are already sacrificing, and it's going to get a lot worse from here on out. there could be some other miracle outbreak of democracy around the world, maybe the US decides to stop pursuing global hegemony at all costs, but a much more likely outcome is the US will gain in relative power to most of the rest of the world, so we'll continue marching off the cliff -- b/c no amount of money or power for those in charge will ever be enough.
- seanwilson 5y ago
  How does any social change come about then (e.g. equal rights, abortion laws) if you're saying common individuals have little influence? - Why would politicians push for policies to e.g. reduce meat eating and flying when they know individuals don't feel strongly about this? - Where did the recent growth in plant based meat alternatives in shops and fast food places come from if not from individuals signalling what they want over the years? - Do companies not making products based on what they think consumers want and will buy? E.g. plant based meat, electric cars, reduced plastic packaging. - Are the views and behaviours of people in a social circle not influenced by their peers? E.g. don't some people give up meat because some of their friends opened their eyes to this issue? It feels like you're saying there's no point doing anything about anything. Changes like this aren't going to happen overnight either but that doesn't mean it's futile.
  - readonthegoapp 5y ago
    yeah, i don't really know the best way to express it, but you could prob say something like, "achieving hard shit requires hard work". you could say 'there are no shortcuts'. or take the middle/later part of the Frederick Douglass quote: (injustices on the oppressed) will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both... that's saying, "we can say words, but it probably won't get us very far". and Madison Ave wants us to say a lot of words, and only say words. this doesn't mean violence, but it does means actual resistance. so how does social change happen? the answer is easy, if not desireable -- resistance. how did 'we' end slavery? how did 'we' get a weekend? how did 'we' end child labor? how did 'we' earn some free speech? how did 'we' earn some civil rights? it's nice to think that all these things could be achieved through what you buy at the store, or by planting a lawn/yard sign, but real activist-types know better. granted, speaking out in some capacity can be important, but there's probably a pretty good way to find out if what you're doing is actually challenging power, is trying to change the system for the better. so, speak out against white terrorism like Fred Hamptom, and have the FBI murder you, with the help of the Chicago PD, and have them all get away with it. try to build electric cars like Elon Musk, and have the US government give you a $400M loan, and ultimately become the richest man in the world. one guy was trying to change the system for the better. the other guy, not so much. most Americans have about zero idea what it takes to actually change the system. we saw signs of some white people starting to gain an understanding when they were were out in the streets protesting and being subjected to at least some of the violence that authorities regularly hand out to black people. you can occasionally see a clip of some white person, gop, dem, doesn't matter, getting manhandled by the police and exclaiming, "I'm white, and you're treating me like I'm black!" white people pretty much just chill b/c they're not subject to the terrorist violence handed out by kkk types, police, etc. white people fucked around, then they found out. ohhhhh, they said -- so _that's_ what happens when you challenge power. now i understand what black people have been saying, well, forever. so, plant a yard sign. buy an e-car. swap your plastic straw for paper. or, you could do something that actually attempts to change the system for the better -- that challenges power -- and when you do, you will know it, because your world will get _very_ stressful in an instant. look at what happened to Kaepernick. look at what is happening to Kanter. look at what happened to Ali. to Abdul-Rauf. etc. myriad examples thoughout history even in the US alone.

readonthegoapp 5y ago

i think consumer-driven consumption choices are worthless, or nearly-worthless. paper straws, electric cars, etc. etc. etc. -- all worthless or nearly worthless, and probably worse in many ways. there are a few reasons for that. one is -- i don't know what the economic principle is called -- but probably something like, like 'equilibrium' -- if you don't buy that car, i will. also, the Jevons Paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox and a few other things. there is, for instance, a drop in meat consumption around the world, and it seems to be caused largely by people prefering to have fewer heart attacks. that's good for a bunch of reasons, including that it happens to be good for the global warming cause. but has global warming decreased? or even stopped accelerating? i don't think so. most Americans probably think that the world we live in is largely one brought about by consumer choice -- as in, the options made available to us were driven by 'the market', which may or may not include consumer choice/sentiment. educated folks know that is not true. so, the fact that people don't want to pay taxes, or die, or experience extreme weather due to global warming -- it doesn't matter -- it's irrelevant -- what the state/government and earth require, we will abide. so, either most of the remaining oil/gas reserves stay underground, or most of us will die. probably not 'us' who read HN, just 'us' poor people who live in India, Africa, Saudi Arabia/Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan, anywhere near the equator, etc. there could still be a miracle - and that's what we're working for right now - maybe we'll build a million nuclear reactors and they won't blow up and kill us all, or maybe we'll block out the sun for a few years and that will only kill a couple billion people, etc. - but the whole thing about people not wanting to 'sacrifice' for global warming - irrelevant - they and we are already sacrificing, and it's going to get a lot worse from here on out. there could be some other miracle outbreak of democracy around the world, maybe the US decides to stop pursuing global hegemony at all costs, but a much more likely outcome is the US will gain in relative power to most of the rest of the world, so we'll continue marching off the cliff -- b/c no amount of money or power for those in charge will ever be enough.

seanwilson 5y ago
How does any social change come about then (e.g. equal rights, abortion laws) if you're saying common individuals have little influence? - Why would politicians push for policies to e.g. reduce meat eating and flying when they know individuals don't feel strongly about this? - Where did the recent growth in plant based meat alternatives in shops and fast food places come from if not from individuals signalling what they want over the years? - Do companies not making products based on what they think consumers want and will buy? E.g. plant based meat, electric cars, reduced plastic packaging. - Are the views and behaviours of people in a social circle not influenced by their peers? E.g. don't some people give up meat because some of their friends opened their eyes to this issue? It feels like you're saying there's no point doing anything about anything. Changes like this aren't going to happen overnight either but that doesn't mean it's futile.
- readonthegoapp 5y ago
  yeah, i don't really know the best way to express it, but you could prob say something like, "achieving hard shit requires hard work". you could say 'there are no shortcuts'. or take the middle/later part of the Frederick Douglass quote: (injustices on the oppressed) will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both... that's saying, "we can say words, but it probably won't get us very far". and Madison Ave wants us to say a lot of words, and only say words. this doesn't mean violence, but it does means actual resistance. so how does social change happen? the answer is easy, if not desireable -- resistance. how did 'we' end slavery? how did 'we' get a weekend? how did 'we' end child labor? how did 'we' earn some free speech? how did 'we' earn some civil rights? it's nice to think that all these things could be achieved through what you buy at the store, or by planting a lawn/yard sign, but real activist-types know better. granted, speaking out in some capacity can be important, but there's probably a pretty good way to find out if what you're doing is actually challenging power, is trying to change the system for the better. so, speak out against white terrorism like Fred Hamptom, and have the FBI murder you, with the help of the Chicago PD, and have them all get away with it. try to build electric cars like Elon Musk, and have the US government give you a $400M loan, and ultimately become the richest man in the world. one guy was trying to change the system for the better. the other guy, not so much. most Americans have about zero idea what it takes to actually change the system. we saw signs of some white people starting to gain an understanding when they were were out in the streets protesting and being subjected to at least some of the violence that authorities regularly hand out to black people. you can occasionally see a clip of some white person, gop, dem, doesn't matter, getting manhandled by the police and exclaiming, "I'm white, and you're treating me like I'm black!" white people pretty much just chill b/c they're not subject to the terrorist violence handed out by kkk types, police, etc. white people fucked around, then they found out. ohhhhh, they said -- so _that's_ what happens when you challenge power. now i understand what black people have been saying, well, forever. so, plant a yard sign. buy an e-car. swap your plastic straw for paper. or, you could do something that actually attempts to change the system for the better -- that challenges power -- and when you do, you will know it, because your world will get _very_ stressful in an instant. look at what happened to Kaepernick. look at what is happening to Kanter. look at what happened to Ali. to Abdul-Rauf. etc. myriad examples thoughout history even in the US alone.