4 ms·

Not to mention the fact that Canada is sitting on what is considered to be the largest oil reserve in the world. This is also a very smart long-term strategic

by blhack 15y ago

Not to mention the fact that Canada is sitting on what is considered to be the largest oil reserve in the world. This is also a very smart long-term strategic move to run a pipeline from Canada to Eurasia and Africa.

hugh3 15y ago
This is also a very smart long-term strategic move to run a pipeline from Canada to Eurasia and Africa This is what I don't get. Isn't there plenty of oil in Eurasia? And plenty of demand for oil in the Americas? Do the Russians really expect that in the future the flow of oil will go in that direction?
- blhack 15y ago
  Well they could be playing the long-hand on this. Oil is obviously a finite resource, and very soon, (when oil becomes much more scarce than it is now) whoever controls the oil will control a large portion of the world's economy. If Russia (I assume you're talking about Siberian oil here?) has a ton of oil, it would make sense for them to sit on it and wait for the rest of the world to deplete their own supplies before drilling.
  - mahyarm 15y ago
    If some university somehow invents batteries that have the same weight/energy ratio and charge time as a diesel engine system (accounting for the energy efficiency difference), wouldn't most of the oil dependence go away?
    - gvb 15y ago
      Pretty big double "if" - it may not even be physically possible. Energy density of diesel: 45.4 megajoules / liter Energy density of a lithium battery: 1.30 megajoules / liter "Same weight/energy ratio" (using volume as a proxy for weight since the lithium battery does not have a energy density by weight listed) is 40x. "Charge time" of a diesel engine is probably also 40x (to pick a number) faster than battery charging (e.g. several minutes vs. several hours). Multiply the two together and you have three orders of magnitude between the two "ifs". Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
      - wlievens 15y ago
        Charge time is less of a problem if you can (switch batteries at charing stations or charge at home, IF you have a reasonable range.
      - caf 15y ago
        Batteries like Chrome-Vanadium Flow Batteries can already be recharged just by filling a tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery). The energy density is still a killer, though.
      - blrgeek 15y ago
        Taking engine weight into account for automobiles, electric cars have much lighter motors and the extra volume/weight can be used for batteries. Consider 30l fuel capacity = 30kg of battery. Petrol engine is about 300kg, Electric motor about 30kg. So that's 270kg that could be used for batteries (and is in the Tesla). And since the batteries can be anywhere in the vehicle, there's a benefit to that too! Ref: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tesla-roadster.htm/printable http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tesla-roadster.htm/printable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster
      - learc83 15y ago
        Also take into account that the transfer of energy is less efficient for diesel than for chemical batteries (more wasted as heat). So it's not quite as bad as the energy density would suggest, but still pretty bad.
    - cynest 15y ago
      They also have to be cost effective.
    - brianshumate 15y ago
      Of course not, electricity is not a source of energy and petroleum is so much more than just a source of energy. Take some time to think about how much stuff is actually made from petroleum these days... it's mind boggling. For example, your electric batteries would possibly power a wheeled vehicle? What would those wheels be resting on? Conventional tires are made of petroleum! For oil dependence to go away, mankind either needs to give up the energy and things which are derived from petroleum or find suitable replacements, and that is a monumental challenge at this stage in the game.
      - hugh3 15y ago
        For oil dependence to go away, mankind either needs to give up the energy and things which are derived from petroleum or find suitable replacements, and that is a monumental challenge at this stage in the game It's pretty easy to get oil in the quantities needed for the plastics industries without digging it up from the ground. Canola, peanuts, whales... longish-chain hydrocarbons aren't that difficult to come up with if you're willing to pay a highish price for them.
- xyzzyz 15y ago
  There's only plenty of oil in Russia, in central and western Europe the supply is much smaller, and most of it is under North Sea. Many Europe countries strive for diversity of oil and gas sources, so that they're not dependent on Russia in their fuel needs. However I don't think that ridiculously long pipeline from Canada (which would surely go through Russia anyway) would be very satisfactory.
  - nate_meurer 15y ago
    It's not under the North Sea any more. Most of that is gone.

by blhack 15y ago

hugh3 15y ago

This is also a very smart long-term strategic move to run a pipeline from Canada to Eurasia and Africa This is what I don't get. Isn't there plenty of oil in Eurasia? And plenty of demand for oil in the Americas? Do the Russians really expect that in the future the flow of oil will go in that direction?

blhack 15y ago
Well they could be playing the long-hand on this. Oil is obviously a finite resource, and very soon, (when oil becomes much more scarce than it is now) whoever controls the oil will control a large portion of the world's economy. If Russia (I assume you're talking about Siberian oil here?) has a ton of oil, it would make sense for them to sit on it and wait for the rest of the world to deplete their own supplies before drilling.
- mahyarm 15y ago
  If some university somehow invents batteries that have the same weight/energy ratio and charge time as a diesel engine system (accounting for the energy efficiency difference), wouldn't most of the oil dependence go away?
  - gvb 15y ago
    Pretty big double "if" - it may not even be physically possible. Energy density of diesel: 45.4 megajoules / liter Energy density of a lithium battery: 1.30 megajoules / liter "Same weight/energy ratio" (using volume as a proxy for weight since the lithium battery does not have a energy density by weight listed) is 40x. "Charge time" of a diesel engine is probably also 40x (to pick a number) faster than battery charging (e.g. several minutes vs. several hours). Multiply the two together and you have three orders of magnitude between the two "ifs". Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
    - wlievens 15y ago
      Charge time is less of a problem if you can (switch batteries at charing stations or charge at home, IF you have a reasonable range.
    - caf 15y ago
      Batteries like Chrome-Vanadium Flow Batteries can already be recharged just by filling a tank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery). The energy density is still a killer, though.
    - blrgeek 15y ago
      Taking engine weight into account for automobiles, electric cars have much lighter motors and the extra volume/weight can be used for batteries. Consider 30l fuel capacity = 30kg of battery. Petrol engine is about 300kg, Electric motor about 30kg. So that's 270kg that could be used for batteries (and is in the Tesla). And since the batteries can be anywhere in the vehicle, there's a benefit to that too! Ref: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tesla-roadster.htm/printable http://auto.howstuffworks.com/tesla-roadster.htm/printable http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster
    - learc83 15y ago
      Also take into account that the transfer of energy is less efficient for diesel than for chemical batteries (more wasted as heat). So it's not quite as bad as the energy density would suggest, but still pretty bad.
  - cynest 15y ago
    They also have to be cost effective.
  - brianshumate 15y ago
    Of course not, electricity is not a source of energy and petroleum is so much more than just a source of energy. Take some time to think about how much stuff is actually made from petroleum these days... it's mind boggling. For example, your electric batteries would possibly power a wheeled vehicle? What would those wheels be resting on? Conventional tires are made of petroleum! For oil dependence to go away, mankind either needs to give up the energy and things which are derived from petroleum or find suitable replacements, and that is a monumental challenge at this stage in the game.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      For oil dependence to go away, mankind either needs to give up the energy and things which are derived from petroleum or find suitable replacements, and that is a monumental challenge at this stage in the game It's pretty easy to get oil in the quantities needed for the plastics industries without digging it up from the ground. Canola, peanuts, whales... longish-chain hydrocarbons aren't that difficult to come up with if you're willing to pay a highish price for them.
xyzzyz 15y ago
There's only plenty of oil in Russia, in central and western Europe the supply is much smaller, and most of it is under North Sea. Many Europe countries strive for diversity of oil and gas sources, so that they're not dependent on Russia in their fuel needs. However I don't think that ridiculously long pipeline from Canada (which would surely go through Russia anyway) would be very satisfactory.
- nate_meurer 15y ago
  It's not under the North Sea any more. Most of that is gone.