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Cloudflare will regret not having a developer go-to framework for their advanced Worker stuff one day. I think they are waiting for someone else to build for i

Cloudflare will regret not having a developer go-to framework for their advanced Worker stuff one day. I think they are waiting for someone else to build for it which is IMO the completely wrong approach for the dream of the serverless app. You got to own the full stack including software. I can easily see Vercel becoming the pretty much only go-to in this space just from the developer trust they have created with Next (and now Svelte). The general getting started experience between the two serverless providers is night and day. One is where do I begin / how should I do this (cloudflare). The other is simply code... and... go! (vercel) I'll be all in on whatever Rich makes there. Been waiting for a solid Cloudflare Worker framework for literally years bridging front-end and back-end. Instead, we got Pages (which is cool, just boring for the fun stuff).

rce 5y ago
SvelteKit has an out-of-the-box adapter for Cloudflare workers: https://github.com/sveltejs/kit/tree/master/packages/adapter-cloudflare-workers https://github.com/sveltejs/kit/tree/master/packages/adapter...
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
  This is kind of exactly my point in not owning the full stack with Serverless. I'd be a bit nervous right now if I built my business / app on that.
- mwcampbell 5y ago
  I hope that Rich joining Vercel doesn't end up compromising SvelteKit's current neutrality when it comes to deployment targets.
  - benmccann 5y ago
    As a heavy contributor to SvelteKit, I can't see a loss in neutrality happening. I personally use other hosting platforms frequently with SvelteKit, both Rich and Vercel have expressed they want to avoid this outcome, and other SvelteKit maintainers work full-time at Vercel competitors and also wouldn't let that happen ;-)
friedman23 5y ago
Vercel is built on cloudflare workers meaning vercel winning means cloudflare wins. Also I think building out the datacenters across the globe is a much harder problem than building out a framework.
- leerob 5y ago
  Vercel's infrastructure is multi-cloud, primarily using AWS. We're currently using Workers specifically for Edge Functions (https://vercel.com/edge https://vercel.com/edge).
  - sva_ 5y ago
    That animation in the background could use a little optimization. It's redrawing nonstop for no reason. Left the site open for a few mins and it got my humble Thinkpad's fans going hard (Vivaldi).
    - leerob 5y ago
      Thanks for the feedback, we'll improve this!
- rabaut 5y ago
  Do you have a reference for this? Curious to learn more. I thought Vercel was built on AWS.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lmeyerov 5y ago
  making a framework popular is harder than making data center stuff; people successfully rack boxes and crank rust/go/js/.. every day, but most js frameworks fail
systemvoltage 5y ago
I predict that Cloudflare will acquire Vercel one day.
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
  I think an executive has commented before that is not going to happen. Things can change though. If I were Vercel, absolutely would not sell either. They aren't like "Netlify" and positioned to be truly the goat of serverless.
  - skrebbel 5y ago
    > They aren't like "Netlify" What do you mean by this?
- admn2 5y ago
  I do think it's interesting how they've positioned Cloudflare Pages. Kind of an "Amazon" move. Unlimited bandwidth and seats. Will be interesting to see though if it works for Cloudflare, they still don't even have Gitlab integration.
  - deltron3030 5y ago
    The 25mb limit in folder size isn't enough for mid-sized blog though, even if you host the images somewhere else.
blackandsqueaky 5y ago
Cloudflare currently markets successfully to a very different calibre of engineer. Meanwhile, Vercel don't even support 2FA login yet, and publish mandatory cache-busting query string parameters to the public Internet. Their "CDN" is a BYOIP range running on AWS Global Accelerator
- Rauchg 5y ago
  Hey! Guillermo, CEO of Vercel here. Security is the absolute top priority at Vercel, and you should be seeing continued progress in that area in the coming weeks and months. We're heavily investing in security all the way from the SDK and its supply chain[1] to platform, product and cloud. We proudly use the best infrastructure and products available to help our customers scale without stress. AGA is quite incredible[2] and so is Cloudflare[3] and we are honored to be able to work closely with the purveyors of the finest infrastructure on the Internet! [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29003089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29003089 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29158742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29158742 [3] https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1456665048949018626 https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1456665048949018626
  - kadomony 5y ago
    Hey Guillermo, Thanks for chiming in here. Unrelated, I saw that Vercel is ramping up hiring for designers. I’ve always worked in consumer-facing design spaces (banking, travel, etc.) and want to make a change toward something more dev-oriented like Vercel, but I worry being told that “I don’t have the right experience”. Does Vercel hire folks looking to change the industry they design for? I’m a senior IC in design systems, so the extent of what I design for devs is mainly documentation sites.
    - Rauchg 5y ago
      Absolutely. A core goal for us is to Lower the Barrier of Entry[1] to building for the Web. Building a beautiful and fast Web experience needs to feel myspace-code-easy (or as Rich Harris puts it: it has to be fun!). I think ultimately that's what makes the Web win long term. It's open and accessible. The best way to contribute to this mission is to come in with a fresh mindset, passion and big ambitions. Please reach out: https://vercel.com/careers https://vercel.com/careers [1] https://rauchg.com/2021/making-the-web-faster#realtime https://rauchg.com/2021/making-the-web-faster#realtime
ksubedi 5y ago
They do have https://flareact.com/ https://flareact.com/ and although it is still early, it is very promising. They have used patterns from Next.js so it is easy for developers to migrate.
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
  This is not Cloudflare: > Flareact is an experiment created by Josh Larson in August 2020.
  - ksubedi 5y ago
    You are right. Sounds like they need to sponsor him!
andrew_ 5y ago
Denoflare (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29142772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29142772) is compelling.
- WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
  Also not Cloudflare (to my knowledge)
  - johnspurlock 5y ago
    Correct - no affiliation, just a happy customer. Cloudflare seems to be disciplined about releasing solid lower-level platform building blocks first (e.g. durable objects), and leaving the "developer go-to framework for their advanced Worker stuff" to be built on top later. Seems like a smart approach to me, but I agree the space is moving fast and even though they release stuff at a pretty rapid pace, it never seems fast enough for early adopters
- johanndev 5y ago
  Do you have experience with denoflare? I really would like to try it, but I can't even get the basic `hello-worker` sample working, see https://github.com/skymethod/denoflare/issues/2 https://github.com/skymethod/denoflare/issues/2
  - johnspurlock 5y ago
    Hi there, denoflare is still in early development, thanks for trying it out - that issue you found should be fixed in the latest release 0.3.1
kall 5y ago
Yes! To compete, cloudflare really needs a nicer "full-stack" experience where you have one repo, one config file, one CLI and one codebase that is shipped automatically into pages and however many workers, dns rules, kv stores, durable objects, Images and Stream deployments etc. They have Wrangler but it doesn‘t really feel "complete". At least they should rename it to cloudflare-cli and cloudflare.toml.

rce 5y ago

SvelteKit has an out-of-the-box adapter for Cloudflare workers: https://github.com/sveltejs/kit/tree/master/packages/adapter-cloudflare-workers https://github.com/sveltejs/kit/tree/master/packages/adapter...

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
This is kind of exactly my point in not owning the full stack with Serverless. I'd be a bit nervous right now if I built my business / app on that.
mwcampbell 5y ago
I hope that Rich joining Vercel doesn't end up compromising SvelteKit's current neutrality when it comes to deployment targets.
- benmccann 5y ago
  As a heavy contributor to SvelteKit, I can't see a loss in neutrality happening. I personally use other hosting platforms frequently with SvelteKit, both Rich and Vercel have expressed they want to avoid this outcome, and other SvelteKit maintainers work full-time at Vercel competitors and also wouldn't let that happen ;-)

friedman23 5y ago

Vercel is built on cloudflare workers meaning vercel winning means cloudflare wins. Also I think building out the datacenters across the globe is a much harder problem than building out a framework.

leerob 5y ago
Vercel's infrastructure is multi-cloud, primarily using AWS. We're currently using Workers specifically for Edge Functions (https://vercel.com/edge https://vercel.com/edge).
- sva_ 5y ago
  That animation in the background could use a little optimization. It's redrawing nonstop for no reason. Left the site open for a few mins and it got my humble Thinkpad's fans going hard (Vivaldi).
  - leerob 5y ago
    Thanks for the feedback, we'll improve this!
rabaut 5y ago
Do you have a reference for this? Curious to learn more. I thought Vercel was built on AWS.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lmeyerov 5y ago
making a framework popular is harder than making data center stuff; people successfully rack boxes and crank rust/go/js/.. every day, but most js frameworks fail

systemvoltage 5y ago

I predict that Cloudflare will acquire Vercel one day.

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
I think an executive has commented before that is not going to happen. Things can change though. If I were Vercel, absolutely would not sell either. They aren't like "Netlify" and positioned to be truly the goat of serverless.
- skrebbel 5y ago
  > They aren't like "Netlify" What do you mean by this?
admn2 5y ago
I do think it's interesting how they've positioned Cloudflare Pages. Kind of an "Amazon" move. Unlimited bandwidth and seats. Will be interesting to see though if it works for Cloudflare, they still don't even have Gitlab integration.
- deltron3030 5y ago
  The 25mb limit in folder size isn't enough for mid-sized blog though, even if you host the images somewhere else.

blackandsqueaky 5y ago

Cloudflare currently markets successfully to a very different calibre of engineer. Meanwhile, Vercel don't even support 2FA login yet, and publish mandatory cache-busting query string parameters to the public Internet. Their "CDN" is a BYOIP range running on AWS Global Accelerator

Rauchg 5y ago
Hey! Guillermo, CEO of Vercel here. Security is the absolute top priority at Vercel, and you should be seeing continued progress in that area in the coming weeks and months. We're heavily investing in security all the way from the SDK and its supply chain[1] to platform, product and cloud. We proudly use the best infrastructure and products available to help our customers scale without stress. AGA is quite incredible[2] and so is Cloudflare[3] and we are honored to be able to work closely with the purveyors of the finest infrastructure on the Internet! [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29003089 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29003089 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29158742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29158742 [3] https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1456665048949018626 https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1456665048949018626
- kadomony 5y ago
  Hey Guillermo, Thanks for chiming in here. Unrelated, I saw that Vercel is ramping up hiring for designers. I’ve always worked in consumer-facing design spaces (banking, travel, etc.) and want to make a change toward something more dev-oriented like Vercel, but I worry being told that “I don’t have the right experience”. Does Vercel hire folks looking to change the industry they design for? I’m a senior IC in design systems, so the extent of what I design for devs is mainly documentation sites.
  - Rauchg 5y ago
    Absolutely. A core goal for us is to Lower the Barrier of Entry[1] to building for the Web. Building a beautiful and fast Web experience needs to feel myspace-code-easy (or as Rich Harris puts it: it has to be fun!). I think ultimately that's what makes the Web win long term. It's open and accessible. The best way to contribute to this mission is to come in with a fresh mindset, passion and big ambitions. Please reach out: https://vercel.com/careers https://vercel.com/careers [1] https://rauchg.com/2021/making-the-web-faster#realtime https://rauchg.com/2021/making-the-web-faster#realtime

ksubedi 5y ago

They do have https://flareact.com/ https://flareact.com/ and although it is still early, it is very promising. They have used patterns from Next.js so it is easy for developers to migrate.

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
This is not Cloudflare: > Flareact is an experiment created by Josh Larson in August 2020.
- ksubedi 5y ago
  You are right. Sounds like they need to sponsor him!

andrew_ 5y ago

Denoflare (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29142772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29142772) is compelling.

WORMS_EAT_WORMS 5y ago
Also not Cloudflare (to my knowledge)
- johnspurlock 5y ago
  Correct - no affiliation, just a happy customer. Cloudflare seems to be disciplined about releasing solid lower-level platform building blocks first (e.g. durable objects), and leaving the "developer go-to framework for their advanced Worker stuff" to be built on top later. Seems like a smart approach to me, but I agree the space is moving fast and even though they release stuff at a pretty rapid pace, it never seems fast enough for early adopters
johanndev 5y ago
Do you have experience with denoflare? I really would like to try it, but I can't even get the basic `hello-worker` sample working, see https://github.com/skymethod/denoflare/issues/2 https://github.com/skymethod/denoflare/issues/2
- johnspurlock 5y ago
  Hi there, denoflare is still in early development, thanks for trying it out - that issue you found should be fixed in the latest release 0.3.1

kall 5y ago

Yes! To compete, cloudflare really needs a nicer "full-stack" experience where you have one repo, one config file, one CLI and one codebase that is shipped automatically into pages and however many workers, dns rules, kv stores, durable objects, Images and Stream deployments etc. They have Wrangler but it doesn‘t really feel "complete". At least they should rename it to cloudflare-cli and cloudflare.toml.