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> Saying Musk is a fraud is very much "trendy" these days, but I feel like it ties in a much wider social transformation where for some reason we can't separate

by GDC7 5y ago

> Saying Musk is a fraud is very much "trendy" these days, but I feel like it ties in a much wider social transformation where for some reason we can't separate the artist from the art. There is a huge discrepancy between the financial value of Tesla and the presence of Tesla products in the market. The other FAAMGs you cannot turn your head without seeing one of their logo (both in your house and when walking down the street). Where can you see Tesla logo? On twitter and the financial headlines. People are not stupid, especially here...we all know what Musk is trying to do which is basically the same he has always done. Trying to divorce his net worth from the concrete and practical impact that his company is having on the world. He does so with promises of technoutopian dreams. This stuff might fool the general population, but don't work in here. As the saying goes "it takes one to see one"

belval 5y ago
I feel like you are answering a point that I was not making, Tesla is overvalued in my opinion too. > People are not stupid, especially here...we all know what Musk is trying to do which is basically the same he has always done. Trying to divorce his net worth from the concrete and practical impact that his company is having on the world. Tesla does ship cars, you not seeing them in the street is more telling of where you live than anything else. I see several every day because three of my neighbours have one. Anecdotes are worthless in these discussions. You not seeing Tesla also doesn't change the fact that SpaceX is putting satellites in orbit and landing the booster afterwards. It has no impact on the current starlink customers getting Internet access in remote areas where they could only get 1Mbps before. It does not change the fact that PayPal is worth $240B today. In a way you prove exactly the point I am making, you call Tesla a scam because "He does so with promises of technoutopian dreams". Tesla isn't a scam, you can drive the car without owning their stock, the model 3 is even affordable. You dislike Musk and that's fine, but your overly cynical take is not enlightened.
- GDC7 5y ago
  > Tesla does ship cars, you not seeing them in the street Are you a car person? They are as rare as Land Rovers or Lotus or Alfa Romeos or Fiats. What's the marketcap of those companies? It's in the millions because those companies don't have a master manipulator cult figure at the helm > It has no impact on the current starlink customers getting Internet access in remote areas Where are they? You cannot pinpoint anybody who owns this thing, let's be serious now. It's always the same, it's the promise of StarLink, the idea of StarLink...number of customers? In the thoudands. > It does not change the fact that PayPal is worth $240B today. Musk is not involved (directly or indirectly) in running PayPal ever since 2000. HN can't have it both ways, if the idea is rubbish and it's all about execution then Lord Musk is not special and his initial idea of X.com/PayPal world domination is also rubbish and Ebay deserves all the credit for the execution. > Tesla isn't a scam, you can drive the car without owning their stock, the model 3 is even affordable Enron too, sold products and services...that doesn't mean it wasn't a financial scam engineered by the CEO to enrich himself.
  - thelastgallon 5y ago
    > Are you a car person? They are as rare as Land Rovers or Lotus or Alfa Romeos or Fiats. What's the marketcap of those companies? I have never seen any of these (are these cars? what are these?!). Stagecoaches we see in western movies? Other than producers of western movies, who would buy stagecoaches? Marketcap of stagecoaches can't be that great! Millions seems like a lot. > It's always the same, it's the promise of StarLink, the idea of StarLink...number of customers? In the thoudands. On HN, we see articles on starlink from early adopters. Not sure what your point is. Everything starts directly with a billion users? This is how all companies have operated in the past? > Enron too, sold products and services...that doesn't mean it wasn't a financial scam engineered by the CEO to enrich himself. You have proof this is a scam? Short it! Publish your research and convince other people to short it with you.
filoleg 5y ago
>where can you see Tesla logo In my apartment garage, i can see at least a few just as I am walking to my own car. Then i can see at the very least one or two at almost every traffic light. I can also see a bunch at literally every parking lot/garage (ikea, movie theaters, grocery stores, restaurants, etc). When i go to the closest large mall (Bellevue Square) or to the shopping plaza next to a major local college (UVillage) or to a street with a bunch of restaurants nearby (Westlake in SLU), I can see the logo on the Tesla Stores themselves. At this point, I see more Tesla logos outside than BMW logos on a daily basis. Anecdotal, I know, but I am not just describing some special day when i saw a bunch of Tesla logos outside. With each day, the amount of those I encounter has only been steadily increasing. By any chance, do you live on East Coast? Because if yes, then I can see why you might be saying that you almost never see Tesla logos irl. I am from east coast, but have been living for at least a few years on west coast, while visiting a lot of places on both east/west coasts on a regular basis. As of now, Teslas still dont seem super big on east coast, even in places like NYC or ATL. I mean, I still cannot go on a 20 min drive in ATL area without encountering at least a couple of Teslas, but it isnt even close to what I see on west coast in general and where I live (Seattle) specifically.
thelastgallon 5y ago
> The other FAAMGs you cannot turn your head without seeing one of their logo (both in your house and when walking down the street). I see more Tesla logos more than all the companies you mention. Even including Amazon boxes. To see a Tesla logo, you don't even have to turn your head, you are driving behind one or you see it in one of the lanes. Don't even have to get in a car, I see several parked on my street. Nobody sees a FB logo. You can turn your head 360 degrees, still no logo. Unless you live in Menlo Park area and drive past Facebook office. Methinks, you live in a 3D world (Metaverse?) unhinged from reality. Or perhaps 3D printed a few of the logos that you keep repeating. Or just making up stuff.

by GDC7 5y ago

belval 5y ago

I feel like you are answering a point that I was not making, Tesla is overvalued in my opinion too. > People are not stupid, especially here...we all know what Musk is trying to do which is basically the same he has always done. Trying to divorce his net worth from the concrete and practical impact that his company is having on the world. Tesla does ship cars, you not seeing them in the street is more telling of where you live than anything else. I see several every day because three of my neighbours have one. Anecdotes are worthless in these discussions. You not seeing Tesla also doesn't change the fact that SpaceX is putting satellites in orbit and landing the booster afterwards. It has no impact on the current starlink customers getting Internet access in remote areas where they could only get 1Mbps before. It does not change the fact that PayPal is worth $240B today. In a way you prove exactly the point I am making, you call Tesla a scam because "He does so with promises of technoutopian dreams". Tesla isn't a scam, you can drive the car without owning their stock, the model 3 is even affordable. You dislike Musk and that's fine, but your overly cynical take is not enlightened.

GDC7 5y ago
> Tesla does ship cars, you not seeing them in the street Are you a car person? They are as rare as Land Rovers or Lotus or Alfa Romeos or Fiats. What's the marketcap of those companies? It's in the millions because those companies don't have a master manipulator cult figure at the helm > It has no impact on the current starlink customers getting Internet access in remote areas Where are they? You cannot pinpoint anybody who owns this thing, let's be serious now. It's always the same, it's the promise of StarLink, the idea of StarLink...number of customers? In the thoudands. > It does not change the fact that PayPal is worth $240B today. Musk is not involved (directly or indirectly) in running PayPal ever since 2000. HN can't have it both ways, if the idea is rubbish and it's all about execution then Lord Musk is not special and his initial idea of X.com/PayPal world domination is also rubbish and Ebay deserves all the credit for the execution. > Tesla isn't a scam, you can drive the car without owning their stock, the model 3 is even affordable Enron too, sold products and services...that doesn't mean it wasn't a financial scam engineered by the CEO to enrich himself.
- thelastgallon 5y ago
  > Are you a car person? They are as rare as Land Rovers or Lotus or Alfa Romeos or Fiats. What's the marketcap of those companies? I have never seen any of these (are these cars? what are these?!). Stagecoaches we see in western movies? Other than producers of western movies, who would buy stagecoaches? Marketcap of stagecoaches can't be that great! Millions seems like a lot. > It's always the same, it's the promise of StarLink, the idea of StarLink...number of customers? In the thoudands. On HN, we see articles on starlink from early adopters. Not sure what your point is. Everything starts directly with a billion users? This is how all companies have operated in the past? > Enron too, sold products and services...that doesn't mean it wasn't a financial scam engineered by the CEO to enrich himself. You have proof this is a scam? Short it! Publish your research and convince other people to short it with you.

filoleg 5y ago

>where can you see Tesla logo In my apartment garage, i can see at least a few just as I am walking to my own car. Then i can see at the very least one or two at almost every traffic light. I can also see a bunch at literally every parking lot/garage (ikea, movie theaters, grocery stores, restaurants, etc). When i go to the closest large mall (Bellevue Square) or to the shopping plaza next to a major local college (UVillage) or to a street with a bunch of restaurants nearby (Westlake in SLU), I can see the logo on the Tesla Stores themselves. At this point, I see more Tesla logos outside than BMW logos on a daily basis. Anecdotal, I know, but I am not just describing some special day when i saw a bunch of Tesla logos outside. With each day, the amount of those I encounter has only been steadily increasing. By any chance, do you live on East Coast? Because if yes, then I can see why you might be saying that you almost never see Tesla logos irl. I am from east coast, but have been living for at least a few years on west coast, while visiting a lot of places on both east/west coasts on a regular basis. As of now, Teslas still dont seem super big on east coast, even in places like NYC or ATL. I mean, I still cannot go on a 20 min drive in ATL area without encountering at least a couple of Teslas, but it isnt even close to what I see on west coast in general and where I live (Seattle) specifically.

thelastgallon 5y ago

> The other FAAMGs you cannot turn your head without seeing one of their logo (both in your house and when walking down the street). I see more Tesla logos more than all the companies you mention. Even including Amazon boxes. To see a Tesla logo, you don't even have to turn your head, you are driving behind one or you see it in one of the lanes. Don't even have to get in a car, I see several parked on my street. Nobody sees a FB logo. You can turn your head 360 degrees, still no logo. Unless you live in Menlo Park area and drive past Facebook office. Methinks, you live in a 3D world (Metaverse?) unhinged from reality. Or perhaps 3D printed a few of the logos that you keep repeating. Or just making up stuff.