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People don't seem to change their behaviour due to those warnings. Nobody's going into a coffee shop, seeing that warning sticker and thinking 'ah whoops better

People don't seem to change their behaviour due to those warnings. Nobody's going into a coffee shop, seeing that warning sticker and thinking 'ah whoops better get out of here' are they? The warning 'cancer-causing' has no effect.

californical 5y ago
I almost bought olive oil, then noticed the California warning sticker that it contained lead, and didn’t buy it - I don’t see that on all olive oil. So it does make a difference sometimes
djbusby 5y ago
Worked (sorta) for tobacco.
zbrozek 5y ago
My social circle is in CA. None of us pay any attention whatsoever to prop65 labels. They're about as useful as any other type of product or business labeling: there's so much of it that it's just visual noise that's long-ago been brainfiltered out of existence.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  They are interesting to the interested. Like «any other ... labeling».
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
This works, if you have 20 coffee shops, and one of them has "there's asbestos in this building" warning. If you have warnings literally everywhere, for minor things, that noone really cares about, because the risks are miniscule, people will start ignoring even the dangerous but identical-looking signs. "this item causes cancer" ... are we talking about asbestos, or are we talking about a roasted potato? If the labels are the same, people stop noticing them.
- njarboe 5y ago
  I agree with your sentiment, but fear of asbestos is also another danger that has been highly exaggerated. Asbestos is only dangerous if it is particularized and inhaled in high quantities over a period of time. Men that changed breaks that had asbestos in them and thus lots of asbestos dust or men who worked on installing asbestos pipes and were cutting them all the time, were the ones who got cancer (or their wives who washed their dusty clothes). The fear of asbestos objects or buildings that have, say asbestos insulation on pipes in the basement, is not reasonable and another example of overblown fear that probably cost the US a hundreds of billions dollars (wild guess) that could have been spent much more productively on something else.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    Ultimately you're describing how asbestos is generally handled, apart from the rare exceptions of subsidies to preemptively replace it. But eventually, maintenance has to be performed on things made out of asbestos, which would then disperse it into the air and surrounding environment. So sure, asbestos is basically inert until it's disturbed, but once some part needs to be disturbed then it makes sense to do a full scale remediation rather than setting up expensive containment and only finishing part of the job.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      You're not wrong. When there's high dollar figured involved rationality tends to prevail over ideological screeching. But what he described is exactly how asbestos is handled in discourse in any other context. People absolutely lose their minds over it.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  I was going to suggest that asbestos was a bad example, because, in most cases, as long as it's left undisturbed, it's completely safe. The only risk from asbestos is from breathing it into one's lungs. If it's not in the air, it's not a problem. But, then I thought: hmm... maybe his is a great example. People are terrible at assessing risks. The word 'asbestos' is likely to cause a greater reaction than is warranted. It's the opposite side of the coin from peoples' reactions to those prop 65 signs.
csee 5y ago
Do you have any evidence for this statement? I have changed my behavior in response to health info on labels, so this is anecdotal evidence against your assertion. PR campaigns have been known to work, e.g. alcohol in Russia in the 90s.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > Do you have any evidence for this statement? The fact that every coffee shop in California is still open, despite people being warned for years that they sell products that cause cancer. The vast majority of people clearly do not care about the warning. And what do you think is the benefit of putting unsupported warnings on things? Do you think it's actively beneficial? Do you think it's harmless? If it's beneficial or harmless we might as well go ahead and put a warning label on absolutely everything regardless. Then how do we react to this linked article? We'd ignore it. If you're the one who wants warning labels on things that don't need warning about then you justify that position!
  - ziddoap 5y ago
    It's not clear to me if you're arguing just about warnings on coffee or if you're arguing that all warning labels are useless. >The fact that every coffee shop in California is still open, despite people being warned for years that they sell products that cause cancer. The vast majority of people clearly do not care about the warning. Or they care, but have balanced the risks vs. their enjoyment of coffee. But they may see a warning on, for example, olive oil which contains lead, and decide to buy another product. >putting unsupported warnings on things? What do you mean by unsupported here? As in, not supported by science? Or by the people? Because I'm pretty sure it's well supported by science that certain products are carcinogenic and that consuming them, unsurprisingly, isn't very good. We can argue about what thresholds constitute a tangible risk, for sure, but either way the fact that some things cause cancer is surely considered "supported". >that don't need warning about Same question -- just referring to coffee or all labels on everything? I agree with this if you're just referring to coffee, but there are certainly labels that I do pay attention to and consider a warning useful. I think there's a happy middle-ground here. If my favorite juice has lead, I want to know. If my favorite coffee shop has a 1 in 10,000,000 of causing cancer, I probably don't need the warning each day.
AnthonyMouse 5y ago
> The warning 'cancer-causing' has no effect. Devil's advocate, it has an effect on some minority of people. Then the company loses sales and has the incentive to stop using the carcinogen if possible. Your lifetime risk of getting cancer from that thing might have been one in a thousand, so you don't really care, but the company has ten million customers and getting them to change prevents 10,000 cancers. This is a pretty good alternative to banning the thing. Because if there is a reasonable way to stop using the carcinogen, you don't want to be the company that has the cancer warning when your competitors don't. But if there isn't, maybe the risk is low enough that people make an informed choice to take the risk for the benefit of the thing with no better alternative, and that's fine too.
azinman2 5y ago
I absolutely pay attention to Prop 65 when I buy products and will find alternatives. I also try to find out _why_ there's a prop 65 warning and then decide how much I care (e.g. if an SSD has it, I don't care because I know I'm handling it so little and it shouldn't be offgasing anything; where as with food or things I'm always touching, then I care very much).

californical 5y ago

I almost bought olive oil, then noticed the California warning sticker that it contained lead, and didn’t buy it - I don’t see that on all olive oil. So it does make a difference sometimes

djbusby 5y ago

Worked (sorta) for tobacco.

zbrozek 5y ago

My social circle is in CA. None of us pay any attention whatsoever to prop65 labels. They're about as useful as any other type of product or business labeling: there's so much of it that it's just visual noise that's long-ago been brainfiltered out of existence.

mdp2021 5y ago
They are interesting to the interested. Like «any other ... labeling».

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

This works, if you have 20 coffee shops, and one of them has "there's asbestos in this building" warning. If you have warnings literally everywhere, for minor things, that noone really cares about, because the risks are miniscule, people will start ignoring even the dangerous but identical-looking signs. "this item causes cancer" ... are we talking about asbestos, or are we talking about a roasted potato? If the labels are the same, people stop noticing them.

njarboe 5y ago
I agree with your sentiment, but fear of asbestos is also another danger that has been highly exaggerated. Asbestos is only dangerous if it is particularized and inhaled in high quantities over a period of time. Men that changed breaks that had asbestos in them and thus lots of asbestos dust or men who worked on installing asbestos pipes and were cutting them all the time, were the ones who got cancer (or their wives who washed their dusty clothes). The fear of asbestos objects or buildings that have, say asbestos insulation on pipes in the basement, is not reasonable and another example of overblown fear that probably cost the US a hundreds of billions dollars (wild guess) that could have been spent much more productively on something else.
- mindslight 5y ago
  Ultimately you're describing how asbestos is generally handled, apart from the rare exceptions of subsidies to preemptively replace it. But eventually, maintenance has to be performed on things made out of asbestos, which would then disperse it into the air and surrounding environment. So sure, asbestos is basically inert until it's disturbed, but once some part needs to be disturbed then it makes sense to do a full scale remediation rather than setting up expensive containment and only finishing part of the job.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    You're not wrong. When there's high dollar figured involved rationality tends to prevail over ideological screeching. But what he described is exactly how asbestos is handled in discourse in any other context. People absolutely lose their minds over it.
actually_a_dog 5y ago
I was going to suggest that asbestos was a bad example, because, in most cases, as long as it's left undisturbed, it's completely safe. The only risk from asbestos is from breathing it into one's lungs. If it's not in the air, it's not a problem. But, then I thought: hmm... maybe his is a great example. People are terrible at assessing risks. The word 'asbestos' is likely to cause a greater reaction than is warranted. It's the opposite side of the coin from peoples' reactions to those prop 65 signs.

csee 5y ago

Do you have any evidence for this statement? I have changed my behavior in response to health info on labels, so this is anecdotal evidence against your assertion. PR campaigns have been known to work, e.g. alcohol in Russia in the 90s.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> Do you have any evidence for this statement? The fact that every coffee shop in California is still open, despite people being warned for years that they sell products that cause cancer. The vast majority of people clearly do not care about the warning. And what do you think is the benefit of putting unsupported warnings on things? Do you think it's actively beneficial? Do you think it's harmless? If it's beneficial or harmless we might as well go ahead and put a warning label on absolutely everything regardless. Then how do we react to this linked article? We'd ignore it. If you're the one who wants warning labels on things that don't need warning about then you justify that position!
- ziddoap 5y ago
  It's not clear to me if you're arguing just about warnings on coffee or if you're arguing that all warning labels are useless. >The fact that every coffee shop in California is still open, despite people being warned for years that they sell products that cause cancer. The vast majority of people clearly do not care about the warning. Or they care, but have balanced the risks vs. their enjoyment of coffee. But they may see a warning on, for example, olive oil which contains lead, and decide to buy another product. >putting unsupported warnings on things? What do you mean by unsupported here? As in, not supported by science? Or by the people? Because I'm pretty sure it's well supported by science that certain products are carcinogenic and that consuming them, unsurprisingly, isn't very good. We can argue about what thresholds constitute a tangible risk, for sure, but either way the fact that some things cause cancer is surely considered "supported". >that don't need warning about Same question -- just referring to coffee or all labels on everything? I agree with this if you're just referring to coffee, but there are certainly labels that I do pay attention to and consider a warning useful. I think there's a happy middle-ground here. If my favorite juice has lead, I want to know. If my favorite coffee shop has a 1 in 10,000,000 of causing cancer, I probably don't need the warning each day.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago

> The warning 'cancer-causing' has no effect. Devil's advocate, it has an effect on some minority of people. Then the company loses sales and has the incentive to stop using the carcinogen if possible. Your lifetime risk of getting cancer from that thing might have been one in a thousand, so you don't really care, but the company has ten million customers and getting them to change prevents 10,000 cancers. This is a pretty good alternative to banning the thing. Because if there is a reasonable way to stop using the carcinogen, you don't want to be the company that has the cancer warning when your competitors don't. But if there isn't, maybe the risk is low enough that people make an informed choice to take the risk for the benefit of the thing with no better alternative, and that's fine too.

azinman2 5y ago

I absolutely pay attention to Prop 65 when I buy products and will find alternatives. I also try to find out _why_ there's a prop 65 warning and then decide how much I care (e.g. if an SSD has it, I don't care because I know I'm handling it so little and it shouldn't be offgasing anything; where as with food or things I'm always touching, then I care very much).