4 ms·

Show HN: Zoldy – Protect your information while in danger or at risk

25 points by rmoon 5y ago

rmoon 5y ago
Hello HN, hello showHNers, You know when an idea is in your head pushing, even annoying sometimes?, when after years it is still there and still pushing?, this is Zoldy, my creation, about 25 years pushing till get real. Zoldy is a service (app) whose objective is to provide capabilities to protect any confidential information and its holders, especially if they are in a situation of risk, threat or danger due to the possession of that information. I came to this idea when I needed this service back in 1995, at that time there were no smartphones nor internet,.., only floppies. At that time the only thing you could do holding confidential information were copies from those floppies and give them to friends with instructions. I lived one of those situations and did not want my friends to be involved. From that time I have spent lots of time developing the concept. By 2010 technology was almost there to have Zoldy working but prices to develop it were too high, at last, in 2021 the idea became real. The app is free to download to have the tool ready to use, when you need it up and running you pay for time of service, 30 days, 7 or 1 day and set your Zoldy up, upload your confidential files, set emails (5 max.) and messages, attach those files to any email. If something should happen to you or you are under a direct threat the app can help you to take control giving you options of negotiating with the information you hold and/or delivering the files to your pre-set email recipients along with their messages, even if you become unresponsive. No registration is required, the service does not work with username and password. You get time of service and the app starts it automatically, not even email or number. Privacy from the first step. Negotiator mode, you have uploaded your confidential files, you have set up emails and messages and if you are under a direct threat this screen gives you options to negotiate with the information you hold, if you touch this screen your Zoldy runs your settings, sending messages and links to files for downloading to the recipients you have defined. This is for real danger situations where the threat is direct and it is important what is going to happen with that information, it gives you options to negotiate at the same time that it ensures the sending of emails if necessary. In real house alarms there is a secret password so that if you are under a direct threat and you turn your alarm off with this password, the alarm goes off but in the central controlling your alarm know you are in troubles because you used this password and call the police, In the app there is a panic pass simulating this. If you use it Zoldy runs your setting in the background - sending emails, messages and files -. There is also a Notification Service: if you activate it and you do not reply to 3 consecutive notifications your Zoldy reacts by sending messages and links to files to the recipients you defined. So even unresponsive you can count on the service to deliver them, the same happens if you uninstall the app with the Notifications Service activated, preventing this way attempts to stop the service through uninstallation. No humans behind, the service is completely autonomous, no admin tool or anything like that. I had to put a "Single Clause" about it in the legal Terms and Conditions of the service. Files, emails, messages are automatically deleted once the service has finished. Track is not possible more than the invoice from the official Stores that says Zoldy Services. Yes, everything is encrypted. No cookies, no ads, no tracking tools, I wrote myself the website line by line, with the help of Bulma (https://github.com/jgthms/bulma https://github.com/jgthms/bulma -CSS only framework-). I really enjoy writing from scratch, I have some control and site flies from my end point. Server in Europe. I will be happy answering any question or comment you may have. All the best. P.S.1 - If you are curious about data have a look to https://www.zoldyapp.com/legal-info#privacy https://www.zoldyapp.com/legal-info#privacy, there it is described publicly how the information you send through Zoldy is processed, used and deleted. P.S.2 - One man and his idea, no corporation, no agency, the one showHNing.
dna_polymerase 5y ago
If you are wondering what this is about and figure it out from the website, they basically want to sell you a dead man's switch as an app. It would be clearer if they'd replace confidential information with the word kompromat.
- rmoon 5y ago
  Sorry you take that impression at first view, although I do understand it living in the world we live. This is not a dead man, I am really alive -ironic just in case :P, it is only me behind this idea, not they. If you want to know anything about how data flows, have a look, please, if you did not https://www.zoldyapp.com/legal-info#privacy https://www.zoldyapp.com/legal-info#privacy. This is how it is, none in the middle, you and the machine.
  - InGoodFaith 5y ago
    > This is not a dead man, I am really alive Hi there! Just a friendly note since it appears that there might be a slight misunderstanding (perhaps ESL?) The "deadman's switch" [1] is not in reference to you (the creator) being a literal dead person, but rather to the definition of your service being built to operate in the event something (like being kidnapped/killed/incapacitated) happens to the user. Hope that helps clear up the confusion. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_switch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_switch
    - rmoon 5y ago
      Hey there :), I tried to joke about it and I did it really badly, sorry, thats why I said I am really alive, trying to say that there is no switch for me, not yet. Thank you!
- bierjunge 5y ago
  Yeah, a dead man switch which you can't control if your battery dies or you have no reception. It's way too unreliable for serious use.
eganist 5y ago
Gonna go out on a limb and speculate that information that sensitive shouldn't be entrusted to SaaS. But if you're that serious about it... ...your pricing is way off. At current pricing, I'd guess that there's probably at least one other revenue source, one that would probably scare a potential customer. The pricing and guarantees should probably be absurd to align with the value proposition (saving one's own life). --- But the fact that this service immediately enables blackmail would probably need to be resolved first.
- rmoon 5y ago
  Yes, for me it is serious, I am the one behind Zoldy legally so yes it is serious. As I said it's me and my idea that I founded and financed on my own and I'm still at it. Those prices try to make really expensive that blackmail you are referring to, in the app you can't put 2 mails the same, so I think there are cheaper ways for that. And yes considering the situation, these circumstances in most cases generate very strong feelings and emotions; fear, distrust, anxiety, excessive worry, stress ... if on top of that there is a real danger, a huge feeling of loneliness and lack of control is added to the situation, prices take a back seat.
imwillofficial 5y ago
Awesome idea, looks like a decent execution, however, you are in dire need of a copy editor. I had to read through 3 pages to figure out what your service does. Good luck!
- rmoon 5y ago
  I know I need to improve this, now I know better, sorry you had to take that time only to understand the service. I take this really seriously and will review ways to explain better and simpler what it does. Thank you!
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  Extremely verbose while remaining overly vague about what it does and how it works. Pushes me repeatedly to install it, even if I don't use it, in case I might need it. Poor copywriting. Cringy clipart. No explanation for who this dude is, what his qualifications are, and why I should trust him? Check. No assurance the app has been reviewed by any respected third parties. Yeaaaaaah, no. The long, rambling, incoherent "sell" that is pinned at the top here really doesn't help (why does HN allow people to do this? It's license to gish-galop.) He's extremely wordy in a way that really reminds me of confidence artists; lots of focus on vague storytelling style language, zero substance. If you install this app you don't have any business being near confidential information. If the CI belongs to your employer, then have personal and organization devices, with the org device managed by their mobile device management system. Let them worry about it. OP: go look at Signal and how they market themselves, but note that someone like Moxie Marlinspike gets to say "I made this" and be generally trusted. You're just Some Dude. With, as far as I can tell, zero experience in digital/network privacy, security, cryptography, etc. Go make a name for yourself in security and privacy, then release an app like this. Or at least find people to collaborate with, evaluate your app, etc. Far as I can tell the biggest problem with this app is that it probably makes whatever CI you upload to its cloud service or load into the app on your device, more vulnerable (for example, apps like Signal try to protect on-device information so data-scarfing tools can't grab it.)
  - rmoon 5y ago
KennyBlanken 5y ago
How do you protect on-device data loaded into the app - specifically from many digital forensics tools used by security consultants, law enforcement, customs, intelligence agencies, and organized crime? How do you protect data uploaded into your optional cloud service? How are you poised to protect yourself from potentially nation-state-level actors attempting to control, subvert or compromise this app/service? Did you develop this app in concert with, or consulting with, any organizations that advise/train high-risk individuals in personal safety? Do they confirm this somewhere publicly? Why can't I find your name in a google search on anything related to privacy, security, encryption, etc? You barely appear in an google results at all... What is your education and experience in relation to app development, security, encryption digital privacy? Have you done any research, published anything in peer-reviewed journals, appeared in any conferences, professional or otherwise - in those fields? Has your app been audited by any established, respected, qualified groups or organizations? Will anyone established in the fields of security, encryption, or digital privacy vouch for you?
- rmoon 5y ago
  > How do you protect on-device data loaded into the app - specifically from many digital forensics tools used by security consultants, law enforcement, customs, intelligence agencies, and organized crime? Data is not loaded into the app, you upload your data, and taking in consideration your question, you could delete your data in your device, and if need it use the service to send the files, even to yourself. > How do you protect data uploaded into your optional cloud service? Files in the cloud are only accesible by your device, they are encrypted and saved into an unreadable folder linked to your device. You cannot know how and where is a file, or how it is named, for example, using the folder system to keep files in Firebase makes that when you are trying to get one of them name changes because the folder is part of that name (virtual folders), so metadata with the name is saved and when a recipient receives an email the download is exactly with the same name as you uploaded, this way files are protected in different ways, including name. What are you going to search if you do not know what to search, or where?. > How are you poised to protect yourself from potentially nation-state-level actors attempting to control, subvert or compromise this app/service? Very good question, ToS were redacted by a group of lawyers dedicated to the digital law, the service is working in Europe and I use the same rules to protect the idea. Information will be 15 days available since the emails were sent, that seems to be very little time to react against. And how nation-state-level actors will know about someone using the service?, or you mean like something to shut down, if this is the case I trust the lawyers behind me, or I hope so. > Did you develop this app in concert with, or consulting with, any organizations that advise/train high-risk individuals in personal safety? Do they confirm this somewhere publicly? No, I did it myself because see the link I posted before https://www.uoc.edu/portal/es/news/entrevistes/2009/roberto_luna.html https://www.uoc.edu/portal/es/news/entrevistes/2009/roberto_... in Spanish, please use any translator service, I was a Lecturer in there and saw lots of times how a service like this could have helped a lot of different people, this and that and all made me to go ahead. They know about. > Why can't I find your name in a google search on anything related to privacy, security, encryption, etc? You barely appear in an google results at all... Because I am 51 and I have been here since this started (internet) and I took always seriously my privacy, no facebook, twitter.. I like not to be in google, I prefer my ideas to be there, not me. > What is your education and experience in relation to app development, security, encryption digital privacy? Have you done any research, published anything in peer-reviewed journals, appeared in any conferences, professional or otherwise - in those fields? In relation to app development, security, encryption digital privacy my education will never be enough that is why I counted/payed on a developers team, in Spain. I planned the app, hows, services to use, and they developed, a year and a half including testing. This is not the firt time I startup something, here years ago I tried an Ecommerce platform in Canary Islands, (one of them La Palma where a volcano is actually working), it is in Spanish, I think that you are searching in English and thats why you have no results, https://www.diariodeavisos.com/2011/12/un-emprendedor-canario-crea-bahiacanaria-com-la-primera-plataforma-para-impulsar-los-negocios-en-canarias-por-internet/ https://www.diariodeavisos.com/2011/12/un-emprendedor-canari... > Has your app been audited by any established, respected, qualified groups or organizations? Will anyone established in the fields of security, encryption, or digital privacy vouch for you? Nope, I did not contact anybody, I had the idea 25 years in my head, I lastly found how to build it and here I am. I understand that this point is important, really important for the idea to have more credibility. Thank you!
user_agent 5y ago
I'm sure you're going to find you niche @rmoon. I'm not in your target group, since in a case of being threatened I’d rather write a quick and dirty dead man’s switch myself, nevertheless people less technical than me could benefit from the service. An idea for you to consider: at least in Europe, in the last couple of years on the enterprise software market Emergency Notification Systems (mass notification, incident management, etc.) are a big thing. A lot of governments in the EU either already deployed an ENS system, or consider doing so (it might be the case that they are obliged to do so, IDK). I can see how a service like yours could complete an ENS for a gov org for instance by supplying an emergency passwords / sensitive data sharing in the time of crisis. Usually ENS systems don’t offer that capability – they’re only about re-setting an org structure after a disaster, etc. IMO sensitive data redistribution could be an important factor in a crisis situation, and from what I’ve seen almost no one on the client’s side think about it beforehand… They solely rely on software vendors to deliver everything. Do your research. ENS are needed in many places: military, gov agencies, corporations, police, border services, fire deps. (also take a dive into mobile devices management suites [MDM], since they’re often a part of ENS deployments) Good luck!
- rmoon 5y ago
  Thank you!, I really appreciate your words. I know this service is not for the masses, I knew it from the beginning, but I wanted to bring it to reality because I am really convinced that it can be very useful to many people out there. What you mention is part of the idea, not now it is only starting up, but ahead if I have any chance, I can think of Zoldy Clouds working independently, for those groups that you also mention. I already contacted two Certification companies here in Europe to have a Certificate from a 3rd party, this way fears about the service will still be there but not that much.

25 points by rmoon 5y ago

Hello HN, hello showHNers, You know when an idea is in your head pushing, even annoying sometimes?, when after years it is still there and still pushing?, this is Zoldy, my creation, about 25 years pushing till get real. Zoldy is a service (app) whose objective is to provide capabilities to protect any confidential information and its holders, especially if they are in a situation of risk, threat or danger due to the possession of that information. I came to this idea when I needed this service back in 1995, at that time there were no smartphones nor internet,.., only floppies. At that time the only thing you could do holding confidential information were copies from those floppies and give them to friends with instructions. I lived one of those situations and did not want my friends to be involved. From that time I have spent lots of time developing the concept. By 2010 technology was almost there to have Zoldy working but prices to develop it were too high, at last, in 2021 the idea became real. The app is free to download to have the tool ready to use, when you need it up and running you pay for time of service, 30 days, 7 or 1 day and set your Zoldy up, upload your confidential files, set emails (5 max.) and messages, attach those files to any email. If something should happen to you or you are under a direct threat the app can help you to take control giving you options of negotiating with the information you hold and/or delivering the files to your pre-set email recipients along with their messages, even if you become unresponsive. No registration is required, the service does not work with username and password. You get time of service and the app starts it automatically, not even email or number. Privacy from the first step. Negotiator mode, you have uploaded your confidential files, you have set up emails and messages and if you are under a direct threat this screen gives you options to negotiate with the information you hold, if you touch this screen your Zoldy runs your settings, sending messages and links to files for downloading to the recipients you have defined. This is for real danger situations where the threat is direct and it is important what is going to happen with that information, it gives you options to negotiate at the same time that it ensures the sending of emails if necessary. In real house alarms there is a secret password so that if you are under a direct threat and you turn your alarm off with this password, the alarm goes off but in the central controlling your alarm know you are in troubles because you used this password and call the police, In the app there is a panic pass simulating this. If you use it Zoldy runs your setting in the background - sending emails, messages and files -. There is also a Notification Service: if you activate it and you do not reply to 3 consecutive notifications your Zoldy reacts by sending messages and links to files to the recipients you defined. So even unresponsive you can count on the service to deliver them, the same happens if you uninstall the app with the Notifications Service activated, preventing this way attempts to stop the service through uninstallation. No humans behind, the service is completely autonomous, no admin tool or anything like that. I had to put a "Single Clause" about it in the legal Terms and Conditions of the service. Files, emails, messages are automatically deleted once the service has finished. Track is not possible more than the invoice from the official Stores that says Zoldy Services. Yes, everything is encrypted. No cookies, no ads, no tracking tools, I wrote myself the website line by line, with the help of Bulma (https://github.com/jgthms/bulma https://github.com/jgthms/bulma -CSS only framework-). I really enjoy writing from scratch, I have some control and site flies from my end point. Server in Europe. I will be happy answering any question or comment you may have. All the best. P.S.1 - If you are curious about data have a look to https://www.zoldyapp.com/legal-info#privacy https://www.zoldyapp.com/legal-info#privacy, there it is described publicly how the information you send through Zoldy is processed, used and deleted. P.S.2 - One man and his idea, no corporation, no agency, the one showHNing.

dna_polymerase 5y ago

If you are wondering what this is about and figure it out from the website, they basically want to sell you a dead man's switch as an app. It would be clearer if they'd replace confidential information with the word kompromat.

rmoon 5y ago
Sorry you take that impression at first view, although I do understand it living in the world we live. This is not a dead man, I am really alive -ironic just in case :P, it is only me behind this idea, not they. If you want to know anything about how data flows, have a look, please, if you did not https://www.zoldyapp.com/legal-info#privacy https://www.zoldyapp.com/legal-info#privacy. This is how it is, none in the middle, you and the machine.
- InGoodFaith 5y ago
  > This is not a dead man, I am really alive Hi there! Just a friendly note since it appears that there might be a slight misunderstanding (perhaps ESL?) The "deadman's switch" [1] is not in reference to you (the creator) being a literal dead person, but rather to the definition of your service being built to operate in the event something (like being kidnapped/killed/incapacitated) happens to the user. Hope that helps clear up the confusion. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_switch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_switch
  - rmoon 5y ago
    Hey there :), I tried to joke about it and I did it really badly, sorry, thats why I said I am really alive, trying to say that there is no switch for me, not yet. Thank you!
bierjunge 5y ago
Yeah, a dead man switch which you can't control if your battery dies or you have no reception. It's way too unreliable for serious use.

eganist 5y ago

Gonna go out on a limb and speculate that information that sensitive shouldn't be entrusted to SaaS. But if you're that serious about it... ...your pricing is way off. At current pricing, I'd guess that there's probably at least one other revenue source, one that would probably scare a potential customer. The pricing and guarantees should probably be absurd to align with the value proposition (saving one's own life). --- But the fact that this service immediately enables blackmail would probably need to be resolved first.

rmoon 5y ago
Yes, for me it is serious, I am the one behind Zoldy legally so yes it is serious. As I said it's me and my idea that I founded and financed on my own and I'm still at it. Those prices try to make really expensive that blackmail you are referring to, in the app you can't put 2 mails the same, so I think there are cheaper ways for that. And yes considering the situation, these circumstances in most cases generate very strong feelings and emotions; fear, distrust, anxiety, excessive worry, stress ... if on top of that there is a real danger, a huge feeling of loneliness and lack of control is added to the situation, prices take a back seat.

imwillofficial 5y ago

Awesome idea, looks like a decent execution, however, you are in dire need of a copy editor. I had to read through 3 pages to figure out what your service does. Good luck!

rmoon 5y ago
I know I need to improve this, now I know better, sorry you had to take that time only to understand the service. I take this really seriously and will review ways to explain better and simpler what it does. Thank you!
KennyBlanken 5y ago
Extremely verbose while remaining overly vague about what it does and how it works. Pushes me repeatedly to install it, even if I don't use it, in case I might need it. Poor copywriting. Cringy clipart. No explanation for who this dude is, what his qualifications are, and why I should trust him? Check. No assurance the app has been reviewed by any respected third parties. Yeaaaaaah, no. The long, rambling, incoherent "sell" that is pinned at the top here really doesn't help (why does HN allow people to do this? It's license to gish-galop.) He's extremely wordy in a way that really reminds me of confidence artists; lots of focus on vague storytelling style language, zero substance. If you install this app you don't have any business being near confidential information. If the CI belongs to your employer, then have personal and organization devices, with the org device managed by their mobile device management system. Let them worry about it. OP: go look at Signal and how they market themselves, but note that someone like Moxie Marlinspike gets to say "I made this" and be generally trusted. You're just Some Dude. With, as far as I can tell, zero experience in digital/network privacy, security, cryptography, etc. Go make a name for yourself in security and privacy, then release an app like this. Or at least find people to collaborate with, evaluate your app, etc. Far as I can tell the biggest problem with this app is that it probably makes whatever CI you upload to its cloud service or load into the app on your device, more vulnerable (for example, apps like Signal try to protect on-device information so data-scarfing tools can't grab it.)
- rmoon 5y ago

KennyBlanken 5y ago

How do you protect on-device data loaded into the app - specifically from many digital forensics tools used by security consultants, law enforcement, customs, intelligence agencies, and organized crime? How do you protect data uploaded into your optional cloud service? How are you poised to protect yourself from potentially nation-state-level actors attempting to control, subvert or compromise this app/service? Did you develop this app in concert with, or consulting with, any organizations that advise/train high-risk individuals in personal safety? Do they confirm this somewhere publicly? Why can't I find your name in a google search on anything related to privacy, security, encryption, etc? You barely appear in an google results at all... What is your education and experience in relation to app development, security, encryption digital privacy? Have you done any research, published anything in peer-reviewed journals, appeared in any conferences, professional or otherwise - in those fields? Has your app been audited by any established, respected, qualified groups or organizations? Will anyone established in the fields of security, encryption, or digital privacy vouch for you?

rmoon 5y ago
> How do you protect on-device data loaded into the app - specifically from many digital forensics tools used by security consultants, law enforcement, customs, intelligence agencies, and organized crime? Data is not loaded into the app, you upload your data, and taking in consideration your question, you could delete your data in your device, and if need it use the service to send the files, even to yourself. > How do you protect data uploaded into your optional cloud service? Files in the cloud are only accesible by your device, they are encrypted and saved into an unreadable folder linked to your device. You cannot know how and where is a file, or how it is named, for example, using the folder system to keep files in Firebase makes that when you are trying to get one of them name changes because the folder is part of that name (virtual folders), so metadata with the name is saved and when a recipient receives an email the download is exactly with the same name as you uploaded, this way files are protected in different ways, including name. What are you going to search if you do not know what to search, or where?. > How are you poised to protect yourself from potentially nation-state-level actors attempting to control, subvert or compromise this app/service? Very good question, ToS were redacted by a group of lawyers dedicated to the digital law, the service is working in Europe and I use the same rules to protect the idea. Information will be 15 days available since the emails were sent, that seems to be very little time to react against. And how nation-state-level actors will know about someone using the service?, or you mean like something to shut down, if this is the case I trust the lawyers behind me, or I hope so. > Did you develop this app in concert with, or consulting with, any organizations that advise/train high-risk individuals in personal safety? Do they confirm this somewhere publicly? No, I did it myself because see the link I posted before https://www.uoc.edu/portal/es/news/entrevistes/2009/roberto_luna.html https://www.uoc.edu/portal/es/news/entrevistes/2009/roberto_... in Spanish, please use any translator service, I was a Lecturer in there and saw lots of times how a service like this could have helped a lot of different people, this and that and all made me to go ahead. They know about. > Why can't I find your name in a google search on anything related to privacy, security, encryption, etc? You barely appear in an google results at all... Because I am 51 and I have been here since this started (internet) and I took always seriously my privacy, no facebook, twitter.. I like not to be in google, I prefer my ideas to be there, not me. > What is your education and experience in relation to app development, security, encryption digital privacy? Have you done any research, published anything in peer-reviewed journals, appeared in any conferences, professional or otherwise - in those fields? In relation to app development, security, encryption digital privacy my education will never be enough that is why I counted/payed on a developers team, in Spain. I planned the app, hows, services to use, and they developed, a year and a half including testing. This is not the firt time I startup something, here years ago I tried an Ecommerce platform in Canary Islands, (one of them La Palma where a volcano is actually working), it is in Spanish, I think that you are searching in English and thats why you have no results, https://www.diariodeavisos.com/2011/12/un-emprendedor-canario-crea-bahiacanaria-com-la-primera-plataforma-para-impulsar-los-negocios-en-canarias-por-internet/ https://www.diariodeavisos.com/2011/12/un-emprendedor-canari... > Has your app been audited by any established, respected, qualified groups or organizations? Will anyone established in the fields of security, encryption, or digital privacy vouch for you? Nope, I did not contact anybody, I had the idea 25 years in my head, I lastly found how to build it and here I am. I understand that this point is important, really important for the idea to have more credibility. Thank you!

user_agent 5y ago

I'm sure you're going to find you niche @rmoon. I'm not in your target group, since in a case of being threatened I’d rather write a quick and dirty dead man’s switch myself, nevertheless people less technical than me could benefit from the service. An idea for you to consider: at least in Europe, in the last couple of years on the enterprise software market Emergency Notification Systems (mass notification, incident management, etc.) are a big thing. A lot of governments in the EU either already deployed an ENS system, or consider doing so (it might be the case that they are obliged to do so, IDK). I can see how a service like yours could complete an ENS for a gov org for instance by supplying an emergency passwords / sensitive data sharing in the time of crisis. Usually ENS systems don’t offer that capability – they’re only about re-setting an org structure after a disaster, etc. IMO sensitive data redistribution could be an important factor in a crisis situation, and from what I’ve seen almost no one on the client’s side think about it beforehand… They solely rely on software vendors to deliver everything. Do your research. ENS are needed in many places: military, gov agencies, corporations, police, border services, fire deps. (also take a dive into mobile devices management suites [MDM], since they’re often a part of ENS deployments) Good luck!

rmoon 5y ago
Thank you!, I really appreciate your words. I know this service is not for the masses, I knew it from the beginning, but I wanted to bring it to reality because I am really convinced that it can be very useful to many people out there. What you mention is part of the idea, not now it is only starting up, but ahead if I have any chance, I can think of Zoldy Clouds working independently, for those groups that you also mention. I already contacted two Certification companies here in Europe to have a Certificate from a 3rd party, this way fears about the service will still be there but not that much.