6 ms·

Siemens LOGO PLC turns 25

33 points by ishikawa 5y ago

mexdiu 5y ago
gims
lqet 5y ago
(A small programmable logic controller by Siemens) https://new.siemens.com/global/en/products/automation/systems/industrial/plc/logo.html https://new.siemens.com/global/en/products/automation/system...
- luciusdomitius 5y ago
  How does it compete against Arduino? Siemens is a huge company and it is quite surprising that I had never heard they have an Arduino competitor. Edit: So, this is how it competes - 250 EUR for the software module only[1] and also only MS Windows... Does not look too impressive, frankly. 1. https://www.conrad.cz/p/siemens-6es7833-1sm62-0ye5-6es78331sm620ye5-software-pro-plc-1750097 https://www.conrad.cz/p/siemens-6es7833-1sm62-0ye5-6es78331s...
  - ant6n 5y ago
    It fits on a DIN-rail, sitting next to cuircit breakers.
  - idealmedtech 5y ago
    When you have these devices running business critical operations, businesses are usually willing to pay more for enterprise level support, which isn't really an option for Arduino (not directly from the manufacturer at least).
    - luciusdomitius 5y ago
      Well, if this means running an antiquated app on a broken OS for business critical operation... I think it puts you in choosing the lesser evil situation. On top of that I have bought 2 Siemens MSD80 ECUs (400+ EUR) and maybe around 20 VDO injectors (at 250 EUR each). The reason is not that I am a huge Siemens fan, but that the quality was and still is appaling.
      - ishikawa 5y ago
        There is no legacy OS as when you start it it simply starts running the program. You just need to program it on a computer, but the software suite is always updated. It is ugly indeed, but not broken.
        OneTimePetes 5y ago
        Its very much broken by design. It has no proper Callstack debugging and thus discourages structured programming - aka use of objects and methods.
        Redimo 5y ago
        You dont use objects and methods in Logo - that goes literally against what it is. Its a FUP based programming device. I mean, it's been some time since I last held one, but I'd be _very_ surprised if you could "code" on it. The whole idea of it, is that you also can create programs on it using its on screen display
        OneTimePetes 5y ago
        Yes, you do not. Its a no code solution for beginners. The very same beginner who rule this industry style wise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCBPxxIjr9U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCBPxxIjr9U You can program it in simatic manager- which can convert other languages (KOP, AWL (Assembly-equivalent if i recall)) into FUP. Which promotes using it for larger scale projects. Which will not have objects. Not have functions. Just kilometres of ladder logic, by the time the disaster management crew is called.
    - mbanzi 5y ago
      I'm the co-founder of Arduino, we do provide support to industrial customers through our Arduino PRO division https://www.arduino.cc/pro https://www.arduino.cc/pro we work already with a number of companies to implement our Pro products in their solutions
      - idealmedtech 5y ago
        I stand corrected! Good to know
  - lqet 5y ago
    It also seems to have a very simple drag & drop interface where you can combine input sources via logic gates to output sources, including a simulator.
    - luciusdomitius 5y ago
      Great, but you can invest the hundreds/thousands of EUR by which Arduino is cheaper in having someone do the coding/setup, no?
      - Redimo 5y ago
        Arduino is definitely not cheaper. I've installed and programmed several LOGOs, and it's easy as hell. It's a compact package that already contains, in itself, enough inputs and output that can be used by i.e. electricians. An Arduino requires you to take the soldering iron into the hand.
        mbanzi 5y ago
        We have some pro products built to industrial standards that replace controllers like PLC and they require zero soldering https://blog.arduino.cc/2021/05/12/portenta-machine-control-add-a-powerful-brain-to-your-machines/ https://blog.arduino.cc/2021/05/12/portenta-machine-control-...
      - ishikawa 5y ago
        It is just a matter of where it is acceptable or not. If one hour of downtime will cost 100 of LOGOs, production managers won't take a risk with an Arduino not rugged.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - ishikawa 5y ago
    It is for different applications usually. These kind of controllers exist for a very long time and they are built to last several years (like 10, 20, even 30) and they can handle rough environments such as a wide range of temperature and dust. Arduino is now popular and great for prototyping but many won't accept simply the board on a industrial and mission critical environment.
    - mbanzi 5y ago
      Arduino has a "PRO" line of products built to industrial standards which specialised devices for industrial control (PLC Like) and precision agriculture. check it out here https://www.arduino.cc/pro https://www.arduino.cc/pro We work with a number of companies of different sizes to implement these new products
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - depaya 5y ago
    It doesn't compete, they are for different applications. PLCs are industrial devices that are extremely rugged. They operate in very harsh environments: very hot or cold, oily, high vibrations, etc. They need to operate 24/7/365 without fail. A $5,000 microcomputer might seem like a lot, but when it's responsible for controlling a $100,000/hr production line it's a drop in the bucket.
anfractuosity 5y ago
I was curious about using a PLC for brewing, to have a little play with ladder logic etc. and had a look at the CLICK PLCs which have for example an RTD module ( https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/programmable_controllers/click_series_plcs/click_plus_plcs_(stackable_micro_modular)/stackable_i-z-o_modules/c0-04rtd https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/progra... ) however even that module itself is $165. Curious if anyone has any recommendations for cheaper PLCs that support 3+ wire PT100 probes.
- ishikawa 5y ago
  cheaper than that is hard. One around that is the Revolution Pi, based on Raspberry Pi, but industrial grade.
  - anfractuosity 5y ago
    Cheers, that looks pretty interesting.
- ddulaney 5y ago
  In general, new industrial equipment is priced for businesses who spend so much money on other expenses that they don’t really care if a PLC is $50 or $500 as long as it keeps their $50,000/day line running. For home use, you can try eBay, but I’ve had better experiences with my local industrial surplus shop. They pretty universally (IME) have friendly staff who like talking shop, will point you toward the right equipment, and are pennies on the dollar compared to buying new.
  - anfractuosity 5y ago
    Yeah that's a good point about buying used, I had a little look on ebay a while ago. Will try searching for industrial surplus shops like you say though.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
ishikawa 5y ago
I understand that for those that have never looked on Operational Technology this looks pretty unimpressive and obsolete. And for a great part it is. For more modern devices and you search for Opto22 and PLCnext. They have not only the controller capability but also can run Linux and deploy containers.
- Redimo 5y ago
  Except thats not the target field of a Logo. If you need to run Linux and deploy containers your task is way out of the Logos target audience.
  - ishikawa 5y ago
    Do you know PLCnext?
    - p_l 5y ago
      I know a bit about them, and the target is completely different - PLCnext (and pretty much all of Phoenix Contact's product line) compete with current Siemens S7 generation, not LOGO. In practice, PLCnext is squarely in S7-1500 range and probably the bigger ones only. That means heavy on Profinet usage, large powerful control units, considerable use of distributed I/O and multi-PLC operation, etc.
karmicthreat 5y ago
Codesys for the Raspberry pi is pretty capable also. Just get some cheap remote io and you can do almost anything. That said, I still hate just about everything when it comes to PLC environments. Copia.io is at least trying to get git going for a market that eschews version control.
- karmicthreat 5y ago
  Also good god, why are we not using certs for security on PLCs. This should have been a thing a decade ago. Only one vendor even bothers currently (Bedrock).
  - p_l 5y ago
    OPC UA support on at least Siemens S7 line supports certificates but you have to lock out S7 native protocol out by firewall or something.
- OneTimePetes 5y ago
  Honestly i do not understand that large SV-Companies like Amazon or Tesla not just roll out there own equipment and steam-roll this whole deprecated industry. Any IDE + git is superior to almost anything they have currently shipped. (Beckhoff at least tried) I can only imagine the scene of a PLC-Programmer explaining to Elon, that instancing the exact same machine will take the exact same development time again & again. Cause using Parameter & Configfiles is not done - instead its pasted into the code. Add a Steam like Online-Software shop (Dev to Dev) to it while basically vendoring the equipment for cheap and you got the whole Eco-system cornered happily forever after. This nightmarish pre-historic dinosaurs with copy & paste monks producing software - have to go. The 80s are over.
  - ishikawa 5y ago
    They do that on a higher level, after the PLC. But for PLC, you need something robust and is not easy for them to it just for themselves without scale.
  - deleted 5y ago
ishikawa 5y ago
For the next years, to remain relevant, Logo needs: - Higher input frequency - MQTT with SparkplugB support - Compute module, even if as optional, to allow container installation and Edge processing, possibly also ML with GPU add ons
- p_l 5y ago
  None of those would be used by target group for LOGO. It's the low-end of Siemens PLC, and the high level (S7-1200/1500) is much more different, does OPC UA, can support MQTT if I recall corre tly, and you can get SoftPLC options which integrate a windows environment with an API.
  - ishikawa 5y ago
    That is my opinion. LOGO had several changes along the years, such as bringing Ethernet many years ago when it was usually an expensive expansion in other brands. So I see it as a compact and affordable piece that if does not continue to innovate and bring more value it will loose market to others like PLCnext and industrial grade Arduino/Raspberry Pi based ones.
mexdiu 5y ago
mexdou
mbanzi 5y ago
The hardware on these products is really great but the software development experience is total HELL. I got a Siemens PLC because I wanted to write a tutorial. I just needed an app to configure it so that it would accept messages from the network. I contacted Siemens, after a while somebody replied, when they realised I wasn't going to buy 7 truckloads of PLC they told me to download the evaluation software. The UI is very convoluted, you can see that it's an oldish software with tons of features layered on top of it... I asked on forums and reddit , the reply was "watch these few dozens of videos where everything is explained.." so the PLC is sitting there on the desk waiting for me to have the time to find someone who knows how to program these who can change that 1 setting I need.. :)

33 points by ishikawa 5y ago

gims

lqet 5y ago

(A small programmable logic controller by Siemens) https://new.siemens.com/global/en/products/automation/systems/industrial/plc/logo.html https://new.siemens.com/global/en/products/automation/system...

luciusdomitius 5y ago
How does it compete against Arduino? Siemens is a huge company and it is quite surprising that I had never heard they have an Arduino competitor. Edit: So, this is how it competes - 250 EUR for the software module only[1] and also only MS Windows... Does not look too impressive, frankly. 1. https://www.conrad.cz/p/siemens-6es7833-1sm62-0ye5-6es78331sm620ye5-software-pro-plc-1750097 https://www.conrad.cz/p/siemens-6es7833-1sm62-0ye5-6es78331s...
- ant6n 5y ago
  It fits on a DIN-rail, sitting next to cuircit breakers.
- idealmedtech 5y ago
  When you have these devices running business critical operations, businesses are usually willing to pay more for enterprise level support, which isn't really an option for Arduino (not directly from the manufacturer at least).
  - luciusdomitius 5y ago
    Well, if this means running an antiquated app on a broken OS for business critical operation... I think it puts you in choosing the lesser evil situation. On top of that I have bought 2 Siemens MSD80 ECUs (400+ EUR) and maybe around 20 VDO injectors (at 250 EUR each). The reason is not that I am a huge Siemens fan, but that the quality was and still is appaling.
    - ishikawa 5y ago
      There is no legacy OS as when you start it it simply starts running the program. You just need to program it on a computer, but the software suite is always updated. It is ugly indeed, but not broken.
      - OneTimePetes 5y ago
        Its very much broken by design. It has no proper Callstack debugging and thus discourages structured programming - aka use of objects and methods.
        Redimo 5y ago
        You dont use objects and methods in Logo - that goes literally against what it is. Its a FUP based programming device. I mean, it's been some time since I last held one, but I'd be _very_ surprised if you could "code" on it. The whole idea of it, is that you also can create programs on it using its on screen display
        OneTimePetes 5y ago
        Yes, you do not. Its a no code solution for beginners. The very same beginner who rule this industry style wise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCBPxxIjr9U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCBPxxIjr9U You can program it in simatic manager- which can convert other languages (KOP, AWL (Assembly-equivalent if i recall)) into FUP. Which promotes using it for larger scale projects. Which will not have objects. Not have functions. Just kilometres of ladder logic, by the time the disaster management crew is called.
  - mbanzi 5y ago
    I'm the co-founder of Arduino, we do provide support to industrial customers through our Arduino PRO division https://www.arduino.cc/pro https://www.arduino.cc/pro we work already with a number of companies to implement our Pro products in their solutions
    - idealmedtech 5y ago
      I stand corrected! Good to know
- lqet 5y ago
  It also seems to have a very simple drag & drop interface where you can combine input sources via logic gates to output sources, including a simulator.
  - luciusdomitius 5y ago
    Great, but you can invest the hundreds/thousands of EUR by which Arduino is cheaper in having someone do the coding/setup, no?
    - Redimo 5y ago
      Arduino is definitely not cheaper. I've installed and programmed several LOGOs, and it's easy as hell. It's a compact package that already contains, in itself, enough inputs and output that can be used by i.e. electricians. An Arduino requires you to take the soldering iron into the hand.
      - mbanzi 5y ago
        We have some pro products built to industrial standards that replace controllers like PLC and they require zero soldering https://blog.arduino.cc/2021/05/12/portenta-machine-control-add-a-powerful-brain-to-your-machines/ https://blog.arduino.cc/2021/05/12/portenta-machine-control-...
    - ishikawa 5y ago
      It is just a matter of where it is acceptable or not. If one hour of downtime will cost 100 of LOGOs, production managers won't take a risk with an Arduino not rugged.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- ishikawa 5y ago
  It is for different applications usually. These kind of controllers exist for a very long time and they are built to last several years (like 10, 20, even 30) and they can handle rough environments such as a wide range of temperature and dust. Arduino is now popular and great for prototyping but many won't accept simply the board on a industrial and mission critical environment.
  - mbanzi 5y ago
    Arduino has a "PRO" line of products built to industrial standards which specialised devices for industrial control (PLC Like) and precision agriculture. check it out here https://www.arduino.cc/pro https://www.arduino.cc/pro We work with a number of companies of different sizes to implement these new products
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- depaya 5y ago
  It doesn't compete, they are for different applications. PLCs are industrial devices that are extremely rugged. They operate in very harsh environments: very hot or cold, oily, high vibrations, etc. They need to operate 24/7/365 without fail. A $5,000 microcomputer might seem like a lot, but when it's responsible for controlling a $100,000/hr production line it's a drop in the bucket.

anfractuosity 5y ago

I was curious about using a PLC for brewing, to have a little play with ladder logic etc. and had a look at the CLICK PLCs which have for example an RTD module ( https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/programmable_controllers/click_series_plcs/click_plus_plcs_(stackable_micro_modular)/stackable_i-z-o_modules/c0-04rtd https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/progra... ) however even that module itself is $165. Curious if anyone has any recommendations for cheaper PLCs that support 3+ wire PT100 probes.

ishikawa 5y ago
cheaper than that is hard. One around that is the Revolution Pi, based on Raspberry Pi, but industrial grade.
- anfractuosity 5y ago
  Cheers, that looks pretty interesting.
ddulaney 5y ago
In general, new industrial equipment is priced for businesses who spend so much money on other expenses that they don’t really care if a PLC is $50 or $500 as long as it keeps their $50,000/day line running. For home use, you can try eBay, but I’ve had better experiences with my local industrial surplus shop. They pretty universally (IME) have friendly staff who like talking shop, will point you toward the right equipment, and are pennies on the dollar compared to buying new.
- anfractuosity 5y ago
  Yeah that's a good point about buying used, I had a little look on ebay a while ago. Will try searching for industrial surplus shops like you say though.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

ishikawa 5y ago

I understand that for those that have never looked on Operational Technology this looks pretty unimpressive and obsolete. And for a great part it is. For more modern devices and you search for Opto22 and PLCnext. They have not only the controller capability but also can run Linux and deploy containers.

Redimo 5y ago
Except thats not the target field of a Logo. If you need to run Linux and deploy containers your task is way out of the Logos target audience.
- ishikawa 5y ago
  Do you know PLCnext?
  - p_l 5y ago
    I know a bit about them, and the target is completely different - PLCnext (and pretty much all of Phoenix Contact's product line) compete with current Siemens S7 generation, not LOGO. In practice, PLCnext is squarely in S7-1500 range and probably the bigger ones only. That means heavy on Profinet usage, large powerful control units, considerable use of distributed I/O and multi-PLC operation, etc.

karmicthreat 5y ago

Codesys for the Raspberry pi is pretty capable also. Just get some cheap remote io and you can do almost anything. That said, I still hate just about everything when it comes to PLC environments. Copia.io is at least trying to get git going for a market that eschews version control.

karmicthreat 5y ago
Also good god, why are we not using certs for security on PLCs. This should have been a thing a decade ago. Only one vendor even bothers currently (Bedrock).
- p_l 5y ago
  OPC UA support on at least Siemens S7 line supports certificates but you have to lock out S7 native protocol out by firewall or something.
OneTimePetes 5y ago
Honestly i do not understand that large SV-Companies like Amazon or Tesla not just roll out there own equipment and steam-roll this whole deprecated industry. Any IDE + git is superior to almost anything they have currently shipped. (Beckhoff at least tried) I can only imagine the scene of a PLC-Programmer explaining to Elon, that instancing the exact same machine will take the exact same development time again & again. Cause using Parameter & Configfiles is not done - instead its pasted into the code. Add a Steam like Online-Software shop (Dev to Dev) to it while basically vendoring the equipment for cheap and you got the whole Eco-system cornered happily forever after. This nightmarish pre-historic dinosaurs with copy & paste monks producing software - have to go. The 80s are over.
- ishikawa 5y ago
  They do that on a higher level, after the PLC. But for PLC, you need something robust and is not easy for them to it just for themselves without scale.
- deleted 5y ago

ishikawa 5y ago

For the next years, to remain relevant, Logo needs: - Higher input frequency - MQTT with SparkplugB support - Compute module, even if as optional, to allow container installation and Edge processing, possibly also ML with GPU add ons

p_l 5y ago
None of those would be used by target group for LOGO. It's the low-end of Siemens PLC, and the high level (S7-1200/1500) is much more different, does OPC UA, can support MQTT if I recall corre tly, and you can get SoftPLC options which integrate a windows environment with an API.
- ishikawa 5y ago
  That is my opinion. LOGO had several changes along the years, such as bringing Ethernet many years ago when it was usually an expensive expansion in other brands. So I see it as a compact and affordable piece that if does not continue to innovate and bring more value it will loose market to others like PLCnext and industrial grade Arduino/Raspberry Pi based ones.

mexdiu 5y ago

mexdou

mbanzi 5y ago

The hardware on these products is really great but the software development experience is total HELL. I got a Siemens PLC because I wanted to write a tutorial. I just needed an app to configure it so that it would accept messages from the network. I contacted Siemens, after a while somebody replied, when they realised I wasn't going to buy 7 truckloads of PLC they told me to download the evaluation software. The UI is very convoluted, you can see that it's an oldish software with tons of features layered on top of it... I asked on forums and reddit , the reply was "watch these few dozens of videos where everything is explained.." so the PLC is sitting there on the desk waiting for me to have the time to find someone who knows how to program these who can change that 1 setting I need.. :)