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The problem with metoo is that the solution it envisioned for the problem, was to attempt to undermine the justice portion of the justice system as much as it c

The problem with metoo is that the solution it envisioned for the problem, was to attempt to undermine the justice portion of the justice system as much as it could, and to create as many avenues for extrajudicial punishment as it possibly could. The entirely inevitable outcome of this is that these new systems were put to use by people to enact personal agendas, in any venue where interpersonal politics was relevant. Which is why we have a growing cohort of people who now reactivity think that any accusation is more likely to be false than true. Sure, these accusations can be very hard to prove. But an accusation of a false accusation is even harder to prove. Yet most people will be inclined to reactively put their faith in one of those accusations, but not the other. The idea we’ve come up with to resolve this tension is the presumption of innocence, and that accusations must be proven for justice to be carried out. This is one of the foundational moral and legal principles of all liberal democracies. While people might end up frustrated by the unavoidable outcome that sometimes, some conflicts can’t be satisfactorily resolved, throwing out the core principles of justice seems like a bad solution to some people.

romwell 5y ago
#metoo was literally about bringing the attention to the scale of the problem and raising awareness, and normalize talking about abuse, so that it wouldn't continue in silence. The court of public opinion has existed before and after #metoo. Let's not pretend that #metoo invented it. If twenty people were to go public and say that Justin Bieber beat each of them with a crowbar, Justin Bieber would have some 'splainin to do, whether or not there's a court case. If twenty people gave interviews and said that Martha Stewart personally fed them poisoned pies for shits and giggles, Martha would be affected by that, whether these people decide to sue or not. But the society made an exception for sexual abuse. Rape and drugging in particular. #metoo simply made it count just as much.
- AmericanChopper 5y ago
  Society never made an exception for sexual abuse at all. If I accused Justin Bieber of beating me with a crowbar, but somehow I was unable to provide any evidence at all that I was ever even injured, people wouldn’t take me seriously. If I successfully started a rumour that Biebs was a serial crowbar assaulter, it’s possible that it might get some media traction, but publishing rumours like that (at least used to be) the exclusive domain of tabloid media. However, if somebody makes an accusation of sexual assault, it’s possible for that to become a national headline without even any evidence that the two people have ever met. I mean, the slogan of metoo was “believe women”, which is the exact opposite of “presume innocence”. It applied pressure to police to arrest without evidence, for prosecutors to prosecute without evidence, for juries to convict without evidence, for employers to fire without evidence, and for society to exclude without evidence. The core objective of the movement was to fundamentally undermine the most important principle of our system of justice. Now that’s a particularly indefensible proposition when you actually think about it, so most people don’t try to. They just attempt some variation of your comment, where you attempt to deny the plainly obvious fact that this is what it was about.
  - tallanvor 5y ago
    What are you talking about? Women are still often told that sexual harassment is their own fault for dressing the way they do, or get told "boys will be boys". It used to be expected that women would have to put up with it in the workplace. Rape victims get told that if they really didn't want it to happen they could have fought harder. There are still judges in the US giving lighter sentences or no jail time at all and citing this sort of reasoning. So yes, society has certainly made an exception for sexual abuse of all forms for many years and those excuses are still being made. Are things improving? Yes. Are those improvements good enough? Not by a long shot.
    - AmericanChopper 5y ago
      Which is a justification for the objective metoo set out to achieve, and it seems one a lot of people agree with. However those objective are very clearly to undermine the foundational principles of justice. Perhaps you find the arguments for this to be very compelling, but it’s simply a fact that metoo set out to promote a presumption of guilt, in all areas of society that it was able to influence. Most metoo advocates entirely avoid addressing this fact, and a lot of people reasonably disagree with metoo because of it.
      - notahacker 5y ago
        The principle that the standard of evidence for the state to deprive somebody of their liberty should be high /= it being epistemically sound to assume the person issuing denials is the most likely person to be telling the truth. And as far as concrete responses go, I would think it extremely unjust to lock up somebody purely based on anecdotes about creepy behaviour towards kids. But I also wouldn't hire him as a babysitter or a television presenter.
        unbalancedevh 5y ago
        When false accusations/anecdotes result in someone being socially ostracized, it is still an injustice that can severely affect the person. I don't really think there's a prescriptive solution to this, but I hope society improves on it. Reality is what it is.
- tremon 5y ago
  Yes, and that's why we have libel laws: to stop these kinds of things from being "judged" in the court of public opinion. Raising awareness and providing support are all fine and very necessary, but the extrajudicial punishments is where the movement lost my support. Still, extrajudicial punishment is what we're left with if the judicial system fails to do justice.
  - romwell 5y ago
    Why did the movement lose your support? It didn't advocate removal of libel laws, did it? And "extrajudicial punishment" is a stretch for "I have a right to tell people what happened to me without shame and harrasment". Did #metoo make a call to burn people at stakes that I missed?
    - tremon 5y ago
      You're kidding, right? You think that all of the things listed below are instances of "I have a right to tell people what happened to me without shame and harrasment", and none are instances of virtual stake burning? Note: this is the result of just five minutes of keyword searches, I have no opinion on the actual merits of these cases, just disproving your claim that there is no extrajudicial punishment associated with the movement: https://www.forbes.com/sites/karenrobinsonjacobs/2020/06/30/adidas-hr-chief-steps-down-amid-diversity-concerns/#79b74b8f6850 https://www.forbes.com/sites/karenrobinsonjacobs/2020/06/30/... https://www.tampabay.com/blogs/media/2017/10/31/house-of-cards-canceled-as-fallout-continues-for-kevin-spacey/ https://www.tampabay.com/blogs/media/2017/10/31/house-of-car... https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/brendan-eich-steps-down-as-mozilla-ceo/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/brendan-eich-steps-down-... https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-cancelling-of-jk-rowling-is-really-about https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-cancelling-of-j... https://nypost.com/2020/06/11/the-wing-ceo-audrey-gelman-resigns-amid-staff-digital-walkout/ https://nypost.com/2020/06/11/the-wing-ceo-audrey-gelman-res... https://pagesix.com/2020/07/01/essence-ceo-richelieu-dennis-resigns-following-scathing-op-ed/ https://pagesix.com/2020/07/01/essence-ceo-richelieu-dennis-... https://www.distractify.com/p/tyler-joseph-canceled https://www.distractify.com/p/tyler-joseph-canceled https://www.rt.com/news/535587-depp-cancel-culture-festival/ https://www.rt.com/news/535587-depp-cancel-culture-festival/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57426579 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57426579
javajosh 5y ago
>growing cohort of people who now reactivity think that any accusation is more likely to be false than true And hopefully both will join a third cohort that withholds all judgement in the absence of proof.
- AmericanChopper 5y ago
  Sounds ideal, but I’m skeptical.

romwell 5y ago

#metoo was literally about bringing the attention to the scale of the problem and raising awareness, and normalize talking about abuse, so that it wouldn't continue in silence. The court of public opinion has existed before and after #metoo. Let's not pretend that #metoo invented it. If twenty people were to go public and say that Justin Bieber beat each of them with a crowbar, Justin Bieber would have some 'splainin to do, whether or not there's a court case. If twenty people gave interviews and said that Martha Stewart personally fed them poisoned pies for shits and giggles, Martha would be affected by that, whether these people decide to sue or not. But the society made an exception for sexual abuse. Rape and drugging in particular. #metoo simply made it count just as much.

AmericanChopper 5y ago
Society never made an exception for sexual abuse at all. If I accused Justin Bieber of beating me with a crowbar, but somehow I was unable to provide any evidence at all that I was ever even injured, people wouldn’t take me seriously. If I successfully started a rumour that Biebs was a serial crowbar assaulter, it’s possible that it might get some media traction, but publishing rumours like that (at least used to be) the exclusive domain of tabloid media. However, if somebody makes an accusation of sexual assault, it’s possible for that to become a national headline without even any evidence that the two people have ever met. I mean, the slogan of metoo was “believe women”, which is the exact opposite of “presume innocence”. It applied pressure to police to arrest without evidence, for prosecutors to prosecute without evidence, for juries to convict without evidence, for employers to fire without evidence, and for society to exclude without evidence. The core objective of the movement was to fundamentally undermine the most important principle of our system of justice. Now that’s a particularly indefensible proposition when you actually think about it, so most people don’t try to. They just attempt some variation of your comment, where you attempt to deny the plainly obvious fact that this is what it was about.
- tallanvor 5y ago
  What are you talking about? Women are still often told that sexual harassment is their own fault for dressing the way they do, or get told "boys will be boys". It used to be expected that women would have to put up with it in the workplace. Rape victims get told that if they really didn't want it to happen they could have fought harder. There are still judges in the US giving lighter sentences or no jail time at all and citing this sort of reasoning. So yes, society has certainly made an exception for sexual abuse of all forms for many years and those excuses are still being made. Are things improving? Yes. Are those improvements good enough? Not by a long shot.
  - AmericanChopper 5y ago
    Which is a justification for the objective metoo set out to achieve, and it seems one a lot of people agree with. However those objective are very clearly to undermine the foundational principles of justice. Perhaps you find the arguments for this to be very compelling, but it’s simply a fact that metoo set out to promote a presumption of guilt, in all areas of society that it was able to influence. Most metoo advocates entirely avoid addressing this fact, and a lot of people reasonably disagree with metoo because of it.
    - notahacker 5y ago
      The principle that the standard of evidence for the state to deprive somebody of their liberty should be high /= it being epistemically sound to assume the person issuing denials is the most likely person to be telling the truth. And as far as concrete responses go, I would think it extremely unjust to lock up somebody purely based on anecdotes about creepy behaviour towards kids. But I also wouldn't hire him as a babysitter or a television presenter.
      - unbalancedevh 5y ago
        When false accusations/anecdotes result in someone being socially ostracized, it is still an injustice that can severely affect the person. I don't really think there's a prescriptive solution to this, but I hope society improves on it. Reality is what it is.
tremon 5y ago
Yes, and that's why we have libel laws: to stop these kinds of things from being "judged" in the court of public opinion. Raising awareness and providing support are all fine and very necessary, but the extrajudicial punishments is where the movement lost my support. Still, extrajudicial punishment is what we're left with if the judicial system fails to do justice.
- romwell 5y ago
  Why did the movement lose your support? It didn't advocate removal of libel laws, did it? And "extrajudicial punishment" is a stretch for "I have a right to tell people what happened to me without shame and harrasment". Did #metoo make a call to burn people at stakes that I missed?
  - tremon 5y ago
    You're kidding, right? You think that all of the things listed below are instances of "I have a right to tell people what happened to me without shame and harrasment", and none are instances of virtual stake burning? Note: this is the result of just five minutes of keyword searches, I have no opinion on the actual merits of these cases, just disproving your claim that there is no extrajudicial punishment associated with the movement: https://www.forbes.com/sites/karenrobinsonjacobs/2020/06/30/adidas-hr-chief-steps-down-amid-diversity-concerns/#79b74b8f6850 https://www.forbes.com/sites/karenrobinsonjacobs/2020/06/30/... https://www.tampabay.com/blogs/media/2017/10/31/house-of-cards-canceled-as-fallout-continues-for-kevin-spacey/ https://www.tampabay.com/blogs/media/2017/10/31/house-of-car... https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/brendan-eich-steps-down-as-mozilla-ceo/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/brendan-eich-steps-down-... https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-cancelling-of-jk-rowling-is-really-about https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-the-cancelling-of-j... https://nypost.com/2020/06/11/the-wing-ceo-audrey-gelman-resigns-amid-staff-digital-walkout/ https://nypost.com/2020/06/11/the-wing-ceo-audrey-gelman-res... https://pagesix.com/2020/07/01/essence-ceo-richelieu-dennis-resigns-following-scathing-op-ed/ https://pagesix.com/2020/07/01/essence-ceo-richelieu-dennis-... https://www.distractify.com/p/tyler-joseph-canceled https://www.distractify.com/p/tyler-joseph-canceled https://www.rt.com/news/535587-depp-cancel-culture-festival/ https://www.rt.com/news/535587-depp-cancel-culture-festival/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57426579 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57426579

javajosh 5y ago

>growing cohort of people who now reactivity think that any accusation is more likely to be false than true And hopefully both will join a third cohort that withholds all judgement in the absence of proof.

AmericanChopper 5y ago
Sounds ideal, but I’m skeptical.