4 ms·

Every time I read such articles, I replace the nationalities American with Russian or Chinese just to gauge how the reactions would be.

tgv 5y ago
For edginess’ sake? While I don’t approve of hacking, I expect American spying to have less damaging results than Chinese or Russian spying.
- hosteur 5y ago
  Why?
  - nverno 5y ago
    Would you rather live under the American, Russian, or Chinese government? Probably as simple as that- what's considered damaging in this case likely depends on your preferences.
    - angio 5y ago
      I'd rather not live any under of them, and that's the reason I live in Europe. This is not the first time the US (an ally country) hacked European companies to gather data about European citizens (or in other cases technology).
      - stjohnswarts 5y ago
        If you think European countries aren't hacking American companies...
    - joshgrib 5y ago
      I think you can both say you'd rather live in the US, and at the same time our intelligence agencies do just as much (if not more) damage worldwide. For example if you live in South America the US is a much bigger risk to you than other countries because they overthrow any govt they don't agree with, regardless of what the people of the country want. Russian spying doesn't seem to result in much damage as far as I can tell, while US spying is regularly used to undermine democracy. If the motto of a country was "we'll keep you safe inside but we'll be treating everyone outside terribly", then you'd definitely rather live inside that country, but it doesn't mean they're less of a risk to the world.
    - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
      > Would you rather live under the American, Russian, or Chinese government? alt: Would you rather be mistreated by a relative or a stranger? As an American I'd rather my gov be held accountable for it's unethical IC behavior - especially by it's allies. The reason is that other nations are proving grounds; the methods developed there will eventually be leveraged by US government(s) against US citizens.
      - nverno 5y ago
        this was commentary on the /hypothetical/ scenario from OP on which regime was more damaging, which I read as essentially ideology choice, not an endorsement of any particular methods
    - hoppla 5y ago
      I would prefer it was China or Russia, if then had a grunge with me, the bar would be higher for them to do something that affected me. Americans can put you on some secret list and generally ruin your life on the basis of nothing
    - TickCount 5y ago
      Maybe I'm just a trivial person, but when I ask myself why I wouldn't live in those places, or any place, I find I'm simply psychologically incapable of being motivated by anything other than living standards, the attractiveness of members of my opposite sex, proximity to friends and family, and all that. I would much rather not live in China, for the same reason I'd much rather not live in Montana, i.e. the living standards are a LOT lower in China than where I am, and it will be a lot harder to meet someone on places like Tinder I can feel attracted to.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. I'm sure that wasn't your intention but intention isn't the high-order bit here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
vmception 5y ago
Sometimes I suggest such hackers are Russian just so the actual hacker isnt chased anymore because people are really gullible and will take that at face value. People imagine Putin signs the contracts himself.
- conjectures 5y ago
  The Wire nailed this with, "I'm not even Greek."
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
dtjb 5y ago
I'm not saying America is innocent, but those are materially different things with different motivations and risks. The reactions would rightly be different.
- joshgrib 5y ago
  How are the motivations and risks different? The motivation seems like "country wants more information to use against people" and the risk is that they do it. At least in recent history (~50 yrs) the US has done way more damage globally through its intelligence agencies than probably any other country
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > The motivation seems like "country wants more information to use against people" and the risk is that they do it. IIRC, the intelligence utility of hotel booking data is for counterintelligence, so it's more like "use against other spies." They're looking for situations where spies/sources are traveling to the same place to meet.
- oxfordmale 5y ago
  The problem is that if America is able to do such a hack, other state actors are more than capable to do the same, however, we may just not know about it as they covered their tracks better.
dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological or nationalistic tangents. They make discussion significantly more shallow (because there's never anything new to say about the most generic and well-worn themes), more tedious (because predictable), and nastier (because the themes are inflammatory and because the mind seems to resort to indignation to amuse itself when there isn't any information to chew on). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tgv 5y ago

For edginess’ sake? While I don’t approve of hacking, I expect American spying to have less damaging results than Chinese or Russian spying.

hosteur 5y ago
Why?
- nverno 5y ago
  Would you rather live under the American, Russian, or Chinese government? Probably as simple as that- what's considered damaging in this case likely depends on your preferences.
  - angio 5y ago
    I'd rather not live any under of them, and that's the reason I live in Europe. This is not the first time the US (an ally country) hacked European companies to gather data about European citizens (or in other cases technology).
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      If you think European countries aren't hacking American companies...
  - joshgrib 5y ago
    I think you can both say you'd rather live in the US, and at the same time our intelligence agencies do just as much (if not more) damage worldwide. For example if you live in South America the US is a much bigger risk to you than other countries because they overthrow any govt they don't agree with, regardless of what the people of the country want. Russian spying doesn't seem to result in much damage as far as I can tell, while US spying is regularly used to undermine democracy. If the motto of a country was "we'll keep you safe inside but we'll be treating everyone outside terribly", then you'd definitely rather live inside that country, but it doesn't mean they're less of a risk to the world.
  - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
    > Would you rather live under the American, Russian, or Chinese government? alt: Would you rather be mistreated by a relative or a stranger? As an American I'd rather my gov be held accountable for it's unethical IC behavior - especially by it's allies. The reason is that other nations are proving grounds; the methods developed there will eventually be leveraged by US government(s) against US citizens.
    - nverno 5y ago
      this was commentary on the /hypothetical/ scenario from OP on which regime was more damaging, which I read as essentially ideology choice, not an endorsement of any particular methods
  - hoppla 5y ago
    I would prefer it was China or Russia, if then had a grunge with me, the bar would be higher for them to do something that affected me. Americans can put you on some secret list and generally ruin your life on the basis of nothing
  - TickCount 5y ago
    Maybe I'm just a trivial person, but when I ask myself why I wouldn't live in those places, or any place, I find I'm simply psychologically incapable of being motivated by anything other than living standards, the attractiveness of members of my opposite sex, proximity to friends and family, and all that. I would much rather not live in China, for the same reason I'd much rather not live in Montana, i.e. the living standards are a LOT lower in China than where I am, and it will be a lot harder to meet someone on places like Tinder I can feel attracted to.
dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. I'm sure that wasn't your intention but intention isn't the high-order bit here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

vmception 5y ago

Sometimes I suggest such hackers are Russian just so the actual hacker isnt chased anymore because people are really gullible and will take that at face value. People imagine Putin signs the contracts himself.

conjectures 5y ago
The Wire nailed this with, "I'm not even Greek."
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

dtjb 5y ago

I'm not saying America is innocent, but those are materially different things with different motivations and risks. The reactions would rightly be different.

joshgrib 5y ago
How are the motivations and risks different? The motivation seems like "country wants more information to use against people" and the risk is that they do it. At least in recent history (~50 yrs) the US has done way more damage globally through its intelligence agencies than probably any other country
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > The motivation seems like "country wants more information to use against people" and the risk is that they do it. IIRC, the intelligence utility of hotel booking data is for counterintelligence, so it's more like "use against other spies." They're looking for situations where spies/sources are traveling to the same place to meet.
oxfordmale 5y ago
The problem is that if America is able to do such a hack, other state actors are more than capable to do the same, however, we may just not know about it as they covered their tracks better.

dang 5y ago

Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological or nationalistic tangents. They make discussion significantly more shallow (because there's never anything new to say about the most generic and well-worn themes), more tedious (because predictable), and nastier (because the themes are inflammatory and because the mind seems to resort to indignation to amuse itself when there isn't any information to chew on). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html