7 ms·

The value of homework has little to do with learning. Yes, students can learn from it. On the other hand, it is mostly intended to promote a certain type of wor

by II2II 5y ago

The value of homework has little to do with learning. Yes, students can learn from it. On the other hand, it is mostly intended to promote a certain type of work ethic where those who devote additional time and effort have more opportunities for success. Whether this is desirable is a different question. For those in a more supportive environment, it can lead to a narrowness of vision (with respect to both learning and life). There are also issues with respect to equity. While I have seen successful social programs that help less affluent families access better resources, those still depend upon supportive families. Grades themselves are truly a mixed bag. They typically conflate work submitted with material learnt, communications skills, work ethic and motivation, as well as any other factors that implicitly seep into the approach the teacher employs (e.g. communicating expectations and meaningful feedback). Grades really should be abolished for more descriptive assessments, unfortunately almost everyone from students to families to schools to boards of education to ministries of education wants quantifiable metrics.

mlyle 5y ago
> Yes, students can learn from it. Largely the evidence points towards it being harmful to learning in early educaiton. > On the other hand, it is mostly intended to promote a certain type of work ethic where those who devote additional time and effort have more opportunities for success. I think if you ask what homework is "intended" to do, you'll get a million different answers from different stakeholders. I think whether you assign homework or not, there's a massive impact of work ethic upon educational success and attainment of mastery. Some students just go the extra mile and are more successful as a result. > Grades really should be abolished for more descriptive assessments, I like grades for MS and up. As much as you talk about the confounds of grading, every criticism you've levied would apply even more to more subjective, descriptive assessments. But I do support emphasizing them less and trying to make what they measure truly be mastery of material.
- dllthomas 5y ago
  > Largely the evidence points towards it being harmful to learning in early educaiton. Do you have a sense of whether that's harmful at the margin (a small reduction from typical produces better results), harmful in total (our results are presently worse than if there was no homework at those ages), or harmful in any quantity?
  - mlyle 5y ago
    This is a very good question. No, we don't have a good clear dose-response relationship. > harmful in total (our results are presently worse than if there was no homework at those ages) Most studies compare schools / classes assigning no homework to various "normal" levels of homework, so they imply that our results are presently worse than if there was no homework. I do assign homework to middle school students. But I don't do it often, and it's typically of the form "think about an idea on the topic of _____ we can discuss" or "do the first couple items of this lab worksheet so that we can use our time in the classroom more efficiently tomorrow." I enforce its completion with social pressure, not the gradebook. "Dude, you were supposed to do the first couple questions on the lab worksheet!" I have a feeling that there is better homework we could assign that would be useful. But we don't have a lot of evidence of what that would be. Proponents of flipped classrooms think that is the path forward, but the research quality is very dubious in primary education.
WalterBright 5y ago
> The value of homework has little to do with learning. I learned the hard way that skipping the homework means bombing the test. You don't learn problem solving skills by listening to a lecture or watching TV. It's easy to imagine you've learned it, till you're confronted by the test.
- mlyle 5y ago
  > I learned the hard way that skipping the homework means bombing the test. This is true in later education, but it seems to not be so helpful in earlier education. You're far better off with supervised practice than unsupervised, at-home practice in younger students.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I'd get assigned homework all through school, but usually would complete it in 5 minutes in class, as did the others. I can't remember ever having to take something home to do. The teachers hardly ever filled up the class time, so there was always time to just do the homework.
    - mlyle 5y ago
      I teach bell to bell. (Well, my students show up early to my class, so I teach more like 2 minutes before the bell to 2 minutes before the bell). Typical homework loads today are waaaaaay over 5 minutes per class in MS and HS. Current high school homework loads are on the order of 10 hours per week in many places. And in fairness, people like you or me, or most of Hacker News-- don't really count. We're outliers and not really predictive of typical experience.
      - WalterBright 5y ago
        If teachers really do assign more homework these days than in my day, this practice has certainly failed to move the needle on results. If the school-by-zoom accomplished anything, it gave the parents a window onto what was actually being taught. They didn't like what they saw, hence the pushback in the PTA and school board meetings.

by II2II 5y ago

mlyle 5y ago

> Yes, students can learn from it. Largely the evidence points towards it being harmful to learning in early educaiton. > On the other hand, it is mostly intended to promote a certain type of work ethic where those who devote additional time and effort have more opportunities for success. I think if you ask what homework is "intended" to do, you'll get a million different answers from different stakeholders. I think whether you assign homework or not, there's a massive impact of work ethic upon educational success and attainment of mastery. Some students just go the extra mile and are more successful as a result. > Grades really should be abolished for more descriptive assessments, I like grades for MS and up. As much as you talk about the confounds of grading, every criticism you've levied would apply even more to more subjective, descriptive assessments. But I do support emphasizing them less and trying to make what they measure truly be mastery of material.

dllthomas 5y ago
> Largely the evidence points towards it being harmful to learning in early educaiton. Do you have a sense of whether that's harmful at the margin (a small reduction from typical produces better results), harmful in total (our results are presently worse than if there was no homework at those ages), or harmful in any quantity?
- mlyle 5y ago
  This is a very good question. No, we don't have a good clear dose-response relationship. > harmful in total (our results are presently worse than if there was no homework at those ages) Most studies compare schools / classes assigning no homework to various "normal" levels of homework, so they imply that our results are presently worse than if there was no homework. I do assign homework to middle school students. But I don't do it often, and it's typically of the form "think about an idea on the topic of _____ we can discuss" or "do the first couple items of this lab worksheet so that we can use our time in the classroom more efficiently tomorrow." I enforce its completion with social pressure, not the gradebook. "Dude, you were supposed to do the first couple questions on the lab worksheet!" I have a feeling that there is better homework we could assign that would be useful. But we don't have a lot of evidence of what that would be. Proponents of flipped classrooms think that is the path forward, but the research quality is very dubious in primary education.

WalterBright 5y ago

> The value of homework has little to do with learning. I learned the hard way that skipping the homework means bombing the test. You don't learn problem solving skills by listening to a lecture or watching TV. It's easy to imagine you've learned it, till you're confronted by the test.

mlyle 5y ago
> I learned the hard way that skipping the homework means bombing the test. This is true in later education, but it seems to not be so helpful in earlier education. You're far better off with supervised practice than unsupervised, at-home practice in younger students.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I'd get assigned homework all through school, but usually would complete it in 5 minutes in class, as did the others. I can't remember ever having to take something home to do. The teachers hardly ever filled up the class time, so there was always time to just do the homework.
  - mlyle 5y ago
    I teach bell to bell. (Well, my students show up early to my class, so I teach more like 2 minutes before the bell to 2 minutes before the bell). Typical homework loads today are waaaaaay over 5 minutes per class in MS and HS. Current high school homework loads are on the order of 10 hours per week in many places. And in fairness, people like you or me, or most of Hacker News-- don't really count. We're outliers and not really predictive of typical experience.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      If teachers really do assign more homework these days than in my day, this practice has certainly failed to move the needle on results. If the school-by-zoom accomplished anything, it gave the parents a window onto what was actually being taught. They didn't like what they saw, hence the pushback in the PTA and school board meetings.