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> Los Angeles and San Diego Unified — the state’s two largest school districts, with some 660,000 students combined — have recently directed teachers to base ac

> Los Angeles and San Diego Unified — the state’s two largest school districts, with some 660,000 students combined — have recently directed teachers to base academic grades on whether students have learned what was expected of them during a course — and not penalize them for behavior, work habits and missed deadlines. That lesson is going to serve them well in the workplace. Teach students that they are entitled to bad behavior, bad work habits, and deadlines? Fuck deadlines The next generation is going to have a hard time competing in the global workplace against cultures that do enforce reasonable consequences for fucking up.

skyde 5y ago
you got to understand where this new guidelines are coming from. If a 5 years old student already can do algebra and calculus but his teacher give him 100 page of simple addition to do as homework and he decide to not do them… Should he fail the class ? I don’t think so, the class is already too easy for him! His grade should only be based on his score on exams! Why force student to waste hours at home doing busy work on something they already master? this sound like torture!
- remarkEon 5y ago
  The same people who are arguing for "no homework" are also the ones arguing for "no tracking." So, in your hypothetical, this kid who can do algebra at age 5 would fail his math class but also not get placed in an advanced math track doing calculus at age 6 where he/she belongs. It's a lose-lose.
  - skyde 5y ago
    I never said there should be no tracking. I am just saying if you want to measure my kid skill do it during school hours instead of forcing him to do an enormous amount of useless work outside school hours
- bodhiandpysics1 5y ago
  The problem is that exams are often an extremely poor assessment of actual student learning, since they're such an unnatural format (no checking of oneself, strong time limits, extremely "easy" problems that can be done in those time limits). The other problem is that the only way to actually learn something is often to practice it. Attaching grades to "homework" is a method of forcing students to actually do the practice. Otherwise, there has to be some other reward mechanism, because frankly, its very hard for children to have the self discipline to study on their own.
  - skyde 5y ago
    in this case maybe force the student to complete homework during school hours. instead of expecting kid to do it at home.
    - bodhiandpysics1 5y ago
      There are a finite number of school hours! Teachers have to be paid! That being said, America is extremely unusual in the small number of explicit classroom hours students have, and the large amount of homework students are expected to do.
      - coredog64 5y ago
        Students from France are absolutely laughing at this. Wednesdays are half days and the homework load at the lower grade levels is mind boggling.
        bodhiandphysics 5y ago
        Students in France go to school 6 days a week and have a longer school year.
      - skyde 5y ago
        I believe homework are useless. but if you think they are a more effective way of learning then why not replace lecture with exercise? Or are you simply saying student need to dedicate more hours per day than only school hours to not get behind ?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
btheshoe 5y ago
When I fucked up in middle/high school, it wasn't because I was lazy. It was because I had no idea how to deal with stress/anxiety/deadlines. I had teachers who luckily were empathetic and I grew up eventually. I was lucky - I have fantastic parents in a loving, stable marriage and my mental health on the whole was not extraordinarily bad. Many kids are not that lucky. In my experience, the kids (my peers) who were doing drastically badly weren't lazy. They had something else going on - a bad home life, or serious mental health issues.
- gjs278 5y ago
  sounds like you were a bad student. none of those excuses will work at work.
- lmm 5y ago
  Dealing with stress/anxiety/deadlines is a vital life skill. At some point people have to face failures and consequences (even if the failure was "not their fault"!) and learn to handle them; if they don't do it in school they'll be doing it for the first time in college, or in the workplace, or with governmental requirements.
  - lostdog 5y ago
    The point still stands. School doesn't teach you to handle stress and anxiety. It just creates some for you.
    - lmm 5y ago
      It's a relatively low-stakes environment (in the long term, even though it doesn't feel like it at the time) where you have to deal with it. That's valuable.
      - lostdog 5y ago
        Unfortunately it only helps your anxiety if you KNOW that it's low stakes.
  - 5y ago
bodhiandpysics1 5y ago
School really doesn't mimic the workplace very well. For one thing, work doesn't usually give homework! (with some exceptions like the law). Docking students for bad behavior is problematic, because it requires the teacher to be extremely honest, to avoid unequal standards. Late penalties almost certainly impede learning since they cause the give up effect, where students give up on something they can't hope to finish, instead of actually trying. The issue ultimately is that if you want grades to be a measure of student performance, they should actually measure student performance, and not other aspects of what students do in a class.
- anonfornoreason 5y ago
  Work does give you homework, it's just the self-selected kind. The people who excel and get ahead at work are the ones who recognize this and do the extra work. Whether that's educating themselves so they can make a career move, or taking on extra tasks (which often requires self-edification) to show they are worth promoting. I think what school fails to do is teach the difference between internal motivation and external motivation. Mandated homework is external motivation for those who don't get it, and for those who do the mandate isn't necessary.
- grammarnazzzi 5y ago
  > School really doesn't mimic the workplace very well. That irrelevant. The point is that in any given relationship, expectations are established and how well an expectation is met greatly determines the outcome. If a student, employer, son, friend, mate agrees to completing a 1-hour task within a week and they fail to deliver, that's a problem. There are consequences. The gist of the article is that the student is really the victim and should be pandered to. That might work for a student or a someone's kid, but any other relationship is going to end badly. Friends, partners and employers get to choose their relationships. If you're irresponsible and disrespectful, they get to chose someone else. > Late penalties almost certainly impede learning since they cause the give up effect, You're confusing causation with correlation. Late penalties do not impede learning. Chosing not to learn by not doing the work impedes learning. If a student isn't mature enough to meet expectations, the underlying cause should be addressed: the student's imaturity, irresponsibiltiy, home environment, learning disablity, lesson plan, whatever... Removing consquenses for failing, making excuses, and giving the student a victim identity isn't doing the him/her any favors.
zem 5y ago
the point of school is to give you a basic educational foundation, not to prepare you for the workplace
- bodhiandpysics1 5y ago
  I agree! Also "prepare for the workplace" is meaningless. There are many many different kinds of workplaces!
  - crehn 5y ago
    Regardless of the "workplace", I think what it really means is an aptitude to be productive despite ambiguity and less-than-ideal conditions. Those skills apply everywhere.
- Burnafter186 5y ago
  David Graeber in "Bullshit Jobs": "Once time was money, it became possible to speak of “spending time,” rather than just “passing” it—also of wasting time, killing time, saving time, losing time, racing against time, and so forth. Puritan, Methodist, and evangelical preachers soon began instructing their flocks about the “husbandry of time,” proposing that the careful budgeting of time was the essence of morality. Factories began employing time clocks; workers came to be expected to punch the clock upon entering and leaving; charity schools designed to teach the poor discipline and punctuality gave way to public school systems where students of all social classes were made to get up and march from room to room each hour at the sound of a bell, an arrangement self-consciously designed to train children for future lives of paid factory labor.25" "25.:Those who designed modern universal education systems were quite explicit about all this: Thompson himself cites a number of them. I remember reading that someone once surveyed American employers about what it was they actually expected when they specified in a job ad that a worker must have a high school degree: a certain level of literacy? Or numeracy? The vast majority said no, a high school education, they found, did not guarantee such things—they mainly expected the worker would be able to show up on time. Interestingly, the more advanced the level of education, however, the more autonomous the students and the more the old episodic pattern of work tends to reemerge." Of course it's not just getting up and shuffling from class to class, but also waking up regularly, meeting deadlines, managing time efficiently. All of these things combined with the "basic educational foundation" which is in fact largely preparatory for later education and workplace fundamentals does seem to point against your assertions. And, frankly I think it's all harmful. Edit: Should probably also indicate that socialization in a hierarchical setting with various modes of authority being assumed while also dealing with virtual strangers at all points in the day is also not unlike work.
tayo42 5y ago
I think one of my most important work lessons was deadlines are almost always not real.
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  But some level of work ethic is certainly important. You don't need to work 80 hour weeks but you need to actually get your work done within a ballpark of when you said you'd get it done.
- zsmi 5y ago
  For many of us in manufacturing the deadlines are very real. I actually like them. I do my best work under deadline as it forces me to focus.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Without deadlines most people won't accomplish anything.
- asdff 5y ago
  Tell that to the client
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

skyde 5y ago

you got to understand where this new guidelines are coming from. If a 5 years old student already can do algebra and calculus but his teacher give him 100 page of simple addition to do as homework and he decide to not do them… Should he fail the class ? I don’t think so, the class is already too easy for him! His grade should only be based on his score on exams! Why force student to waste hours at home doing busy work on something they already master? this sound like torture!

remarkEon 5y ago
The same people who are arguing for "no homework" are also the ones arguing for "no tracking." So, in your hypothetical, this kid who can do algebra at age 5 would fail his math class but also not get placed in an advanced math track doing calculus at age 6 where he/she belongs. It's a lose-lose.
- skyde 5y ago
  I never said there should be no tracking. I am just saying if you want to measure my kid skill do it during school hours instead of forcing him to do an enormous amount of useless work outside school hours
bodhiandpysics1 5y ago
The problem is that exams are often an extremely poor assessment of actual student learning, since they're such an unnatural format (no checking of oneself, strong time limits, extremely "easy" problems that can be done in those time limits). The other problem is that the only way to actually learn something is often to practice it. Attaching grades to "homework" is a method of forcing students to actually do the practice. Otherwise, there has to be some other reward mechanism, because frankly, its very hard for children to have the self discipline to study on their own.
- skyde 5y ago
  in this case maybe force the student to complete homework during school hours. instead of expecting kid to do it at home.
  - bodhiandpysics1 5y ago
    There are a finite number of school hours! Teachers have to be paid! That being said, America is extremely unusual in the small number of explicit classroom hours students have, and the large amount of homework students are expected to do.
    - coredog64 5y ago
      Students from France are absolutely laughing at this. Wednesdays are half days and the homework load at the lower grade levels is mind boggling.
      - bodhiandphysics 5y ago
        Students in France go to school 6 days a week and have a longer school year.
    - skyde 5y ago
      I believe homework are useless. but if you think they are a more effective way of learning then why not replace lecture with exercise? Or are you simply saying student need to dedicate more hours per day than only school hours to not get behind ?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

btheshoe 5y ago

When I fucked up in middle/high school, it wasn't because I was lazy. It was because I had no idea how to deal with stress/anxiety/deadlines. I had teachers who luckily were empathetic and I grew up eventually. I was lucky - I have fantastic parents in a loving, stable marriage and my mental health on the whole was not extraordinarily bad. Many kids are not that lucky. In my experience, the kids (my peers) who were doing drastically badly weren't lazy. They had something else going on - a bad home life, or serious mental health issues.

gjs278 5y ago
sounds like you were a bad student. none of those excuses will work at work.
lmm 5y ago
Dealing with stress/anxiety/deadlines is a vital life skill. At some point people have to face failures and consequences (even if the failure was "not their fault"!) and learn to handle them; if they don't do it in school they'll be doing it for the first time in college, or in the workplace, or with governmental requirements.
- lostdog 5y ago
  The point still stands. School doesn't teach you to handle stress and anxiety. It just creates some for you.
  - lmm 5y ago
    It's a relatively low-stakes environment (in the long term, even though it doesn't feel like it at the time) where you have to deal with it. That's valuable.
    - lostdog 5y ago
      Unfortunately it only helps your anxiety if you KNOW that it's low stakes.
- 5y ago

bodhiandpysics1 5y ago

School really doesn't mimic the workplace very well. For one thing, work doesn't usually give homework! (with some exceptions like the law). Docking students for bad behavior is problematic, because it requires the teacher to be extremely honest, to avoid unequal standards. Late penalties almost certainly impede learning since they cause the give up effect, where students give up on something they can't hope to finish, instead of actually trying. The issue ultimately is that if you want grades to be a measure of student performance, they should actually measure student performance, and not other aspects of what students do in a class.

anonfornoreason 5y ago
Work does give you homework, it's just the self-selected kind. The people who excel and get ahead at work are the ones who recognize this and do the extra work. Whether that's educating themselves so they can make a career move, or taking on extra tasks (which often requires self-edification) to show they are worth promoting. I think what school fails to do is teach the difference between internal motivation and external motivation. Mandated homework is external motivation for those who don't get it, and for those who do the mandate isn't necessary.
grammarnazzzi 5y ago
> School really doesn't mimic the workplace very well. That irrelevant. The point is that in any given relationship, expectations are established and how well an expectation is met greatly determines the outcome. If a student, employer, son, friend, mate agrees to completing a 1-hour task within a week and they fail to deliver, that's a problem. There are consequences. The gist of the article is that the student is really the victim and should be pandered to. That might work for a student or a someone's kid, but any other relationship is going to end badly. Friends, partners and employers get to choose their relationships. If you're irresponsible and disrespectful, they get to chose someone else. > Late penalties almost certainly impede learning since they cause the give up effect, You're confusing causation with correlation. Late penalties do not impede learning. Chosing not to learn by not doing the work impedes learning. If a student isn't mature enough to meet expectations, the underlying cause should be addressed: the student's imaturity, irresponsibiltiy, home environment, learning disablity, lesson plan, whatever... Removing consquenses for failing, making excuses, and giving the student a victim identity isn't doing the him/her any favors.

zem 5y ago

the point of school is to give you a basic educational foundation, not to prepare you for the workplace

bodhiandpysics1 5y ago
I agree! Also "prepare for the workplace" is meaningless. There are many many different kinds of workplaces!
- crehn 5y ago
  Regardless of the "workplace", I think what it really means is an aptitude to be productive despite ambiguity and less-than-ideal conditions. Those skills apply everywhere.
Burnafter186 5y ago
David Graeber in "Bullshit Jobs": "Once time was money, it became possible to speak of “spending time,” rather than just “passing” it—also of wasting time, killing time, saving time, losing time, racing against time, and so forth. Puritan, Methodist, and evangelical preachers soon began instructing their flocks about the “husbandry of time,” proposing that the careful budgeting of time was the essence of morality. Factories began employing time clocks; workers came to be expected to punch the clock upon entering and leaving; charity schools designed to teach the poor discipline and punctuality gave way to public school systems where students of all social classes were made to get up and march from room to room each hour at the sound of a bell, an arrangement self-consciously designed to train children for future lives of paid factory labor.25" "25.:Those who designed modern universal education systems were quite explicit about all this: Thompson himself cites a number of them. I remember reading that someone once surveyed American employers about what it was they actually expected when they specified in a job ad that a worker must have a high school degree: a certain level of literacy? Or numeracy? The vast majority said no, a high school education, they found, did not guarantee such things—they mainly expected the worker would be able to show up on time. Interestingly, the more advanced the level of education, however, the more autonomous the students and the more the old episodic pattern of work tends to reemerge." Of course it's not just getting up and shuffling from class to class, but also waking up regularly, meeting deadlines, managing time efficiently. All of these things combined with the "basic educational foundation" which is in fact largely preparatory for later education and workplace fundamentals does seem to point against your assertions. And, frankly I think it's all harmful. Edit: Should probably also indicate that socialization in a hierarchical setting with various modes of authority being assumed while also dealing with virtual strangers at all points in the day is also not unlike work.

tayo42 5y ago

I think one of my most important work lessons was deadlines are almost always not real.

b9a2cab5 5y ago
But some level of work ethic is certainly important. You don't need to work 80 hour weeks but you need to actually get your work done within a ballpark of when you said you'd get it done.
zsmi 5y ago
For many of us in manufacturing the deadlines are very real. I actually like them. I do my best work under deadline as it forces me to focus.
WalterBright 5y ago
Without deadlines most people won't accomplish anything.
asdff 5y ago
Tell that to the client

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]