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Right-to-Repair causes Subaru to disable telematics in Massachusetts
- quantified 5y ago> The real impact will be the financial handicap that comes with an inability to harvest and then sell customer data to commercial partners. Handicaps are relative. The carmakers just don’t get to make money a new way. There are many ways they don’t get to make more money. Not an actual problem to anyone.
- gentleman11 5y agoIt’s like saying that other private property and privacy laws are all inflicting financial hardships on people who want to sneak into our houses and photograph our family members while they sleep.
- vineyardmike 5y ago> The carmakers just don’t get to make money a new way. Exactly! What ever happened to making money from... selling cars? Or, as is more common, from financing the sale of cars.
- quantified 5y agoThey can always move into crypto. NFTs of your warranty and the like.
- rory 5y agoAnd importantly, none of their competitors can make money in this way (from MA customers). So car companies that don't aggressively sell customer data are no longer at a financial disadvantage. Seems like a great use of regulation to me.
- danShumway 5y agoAgreed. It's like saying, "this nutrition labeling law is handicapping us because we have no idea how much sugar we put in our foods." There's a difference between a regulation that hampers real innovation and a regulation that hampers people doing the thing the regulation is designed to prevent. The regulation is designed to force automobile manufacturers to only launch invasive features if there's a way for customers to service them. And they're complaining that the regulation... does that thing.
- hchasestevens 5y agoAlternatively: without this new source of revenue, auto manufacturers will be less able to compete on price and maintain the same margins. As a consumer, I don't get to decide whether I'd like a "repairable" car that doesn't harvest my data for $X, or am willing to settle for a data-harvesting, proprietary vehicle for $(X - Y) - the state has made that choice on my behalf and decided the latter should be illegal to sell to me (read: for me to purchase). That $Y probably ends up being small enough that it doesn't matter to the average high-paid HN reader, but consumer prices do matter to people at the margins. There's a reason ad-supported Kindles exist, even if I personally would never buy one.
- allenrb 5y agoAlso, by prohibiting poor people from selling their own organs, it is more difficult for these folks to make ends meet in the short term. That doesn’t sound like good reasoning to me.
- maxwellb 5y agor.e. the state deciding for you - this was a statewide ballot measure, and passed with ~75% of the vote.
- quantified 5y agoMuch closer to a “we the people” decision for voters than almost anything else.
- VWWHFSfQ 5y ago> Massachusetts' updated law currently requires all vehicles sold within the state (from the 2022 model year onward) using telematics systems to be equipped with a standardized, open-access data platform that would allow customers and unaffiliated mechanics to gain access. I'm reminded of this iconic speech by Eben Moglen in 2010 [1][2] "Software flies airplanes." [1] https://softwarefreedom.org/events/2010/sscl/moglen-software_in_everything-transcript.html https://softwarefreedom.org/events/2010/sscl/moglen-software... [2] https://vimeo.com/13187007#t=4:56 https://vimeo.com/13187007#t=4:56
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago> Numerous automakers (e.g. General Motors) have likewise shown presentations stating that data acquisition would soon become an important revenue source for the industry. Does anyone have any links referencing these presentations? I know selling data to data brokers is a hot topic, but from my (extremely limited) exposure to this topic in the industry I got the impression that the actual value of such data was almost negligible. Certainly minimal relative to the price tag of a car.
- maxerickson 5y agoYeah, I wonder too. Location data has a clear use case, but I get the idea that it's "worth collecting" vs "a goldmine".
- ungawatkt 5y agoSpeculation, but the obvious market to me is insurance providers. I'd think that data is worth a decent amount to them, both for good and bad reasons.
- landemva 5y agoI think the obvious customers are IRS and FBI, who pay for data with our money.
- jbverschoor 5y agoProgrammers and technical people should store this data hoarding fetisj. “Just in case” or “will be very valuable in the future” are bad reasons
- lazide 5y agoIt’s paid off handsomely for many. Until it’s clearly a liability, it isn’t going to stop.
- chrisjc 5y agoI think the statement is to be interpreted different ways. It's not just the data itself that can be sold to external parties as a revenue source, but also the value that can be derived from the data and used both internally and externally. For instance, being able to determine when a vehicle is due for maintenance and preemptively directing the customer to automakers preferred service department via email/txt/phone. From what I understand money is no longer made on the car itself, instead it's made on the financing and maintenance. Moreover, there is also a lot of value that can be derived from telemetry data long before it reaches the customer's driveway. Transportation from factory to dealership, hot/cold dealership lot locations, test-drive analytics, stolen/lost assets, etc... Everyone seems to be concerned about location information being collected and sold (due to the privacy concerns obviously), but the value in the data collected is not just based on location.
- vulpes 5y agoDoes anyone know if any bodies are trying to define an open standard? I wonder if the money they're spending fighting this would be better spent developing this standard.
- sahaskatta 5y agoYes. We have at https://smartcar.com https://smartcar.com Happy to answer any more questions!
- aetherspawn 5y ago> Subaru’s problem is that no such standardized system yet exists, forcing it (and eventually other brands) to have to nix its Starlink telematics offerings and related data harvesting. It does exist, it's called J1939 and it is popular already in trucks and non european truck-like consumer vehicles i.e. pickups. It also allows the effortless integration of aftermarket systems like F+R sonar emergency braking, trailer ABS units, radar cruise, low speed acoustic devices and various other bolt-ons like power take-offs. In fact, it's this standardization that allowed some hundreds of third party fleet telematics systems to plug into virtually any OE vehicle and pull out a whole bunch of useful data, such as the odometer, fuel level, road speed, torque request and selected gear. It does however currently lack useful standardization for electric vehicles. They can fit within the standard, but there is no standard way to read the voltage of a particular cell in one of the vehicles' many battery packs, for example. Or the state of charge or battery wear as a whole. I think this contributes to the high integration effort in EVs at the moment. Or why you see few upfitters doing custom bodies for EVs. Things could be a lot more .. plug and play.
- hirundo 5y agoDoes this system allow me to turn telematics off? I'm less interested in reading it than blocking it.
- aetherspawn 5y agoThe telematics are on a layer above J1939. If you think of J1939 like HTTP/REST (and standard response formatting), then the telematics would be a client on the vehicle. You could find the telematics control unit and unplug it, I suppose. Many fleet owners buy vehicles without default optioned telematics and pick their own. I don't think the argument is the invasion of privacy with telematics, but rather, that mechanic shops would like to access the vehicle data for diagnostics, which they can do if it is according to a standard.
- autotech 5y agoJ1939 or CAN is a network protocol many vehicles use for control module to control module communication. The “standardized system” you were commenting about is referring to access to the server side info. Currently manufacturers can pull telematics data like odometer, trouble codes and PIDs (data items like speed, brake status and very much more) which helps with service reminders and streamlining the repair process. Aftermarket shops are at a great disadvantage in this regard.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago"Frankly, your author has been on the side of the right-to-repair movement since day one."
- dreamcompiler 5y agoHas anybody built a website with easy instructions for finding and disabling the cellular modems in various models of cars?
- dmitrygr 5y agoPredictably, manufacturers keep making this harder and harder. They make money from the data and don't want to lose that. In my old corvette, it was a simple as pulling fuse 27. In the 2022 model that breaks other things (compass, Bluetooth), so I’m going to go find the lte antenna connectors and replace them with 50ohm resistors whenever I have a free weekend next.
- grishka 5y agoIt does have to have a SIM card somewhere in it, right? Can't you just pull that out? And if it refuses to work without one, put a SIM card that's disconnected or is from a foreign country.
- dreamcompiler 5y agoTrouble is the car has GPS too, so if it saw you were in the US with a non-US SIM card it might decide to insist you take it to a dealer. That's why I like the 50 ohm resistor idea.
- grishka 5y agoRight, I tend to forget that most devices come with malware preinstalled these days.
- redsparrow 5y agoSIMs don't have to be removable; there are re-programmable versions called eSIMs. I assume cars are more likely to use these. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESIM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESIM
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- ksmith14 5y agoWhen car shopping a free months ago I learned that Kia wasn’t offering its UvoLink service in Massachusetts and I put it together pretty quickly. I was surprised though to discover the its sibling brand, Hyundai, _does_ offer its telematics service, BlueLink, in MA.
- rurp 5y agoSomewhat related to this, I've recently been shopping for a new car to replace my current Subaru that I've had for over a decade. It's been a great car so I figured I'd get another Subaru but, man, some of the newer "features" have completely turned me off to the company. One is a system called DriverFocus that monitors the drivers face, runs some sort of facial recognition software, and alerts anytime it doesn't think the driver's face is paying enough attention. Unsurprisingly it's horribly buggy and has a ton of false positives, but even worse: you can't disable it! There's a setting in the menu that will turn it off for that trip, but it will turn itself back on during a future start. To make it even worse, some models can't be purchased without it now. I can only imagine what the company will be doing with that facial data down the line. I absolutely don't want a car that constantly spies on my face in a way that can't even be turned off. Between that feature, this telemetry article, and some other anti-user features it's incredible what a customer hostile company Subaru has become. It's a shame because they used to be one of my favorites.
- lttlrck 5y agoMy 2013 E350 MB monitors driver alertness through steering, brake and throttle input alone. And it's surprisingly good, facial recognition is not required. The only time it gets triggered is when I'm doing late night or very early morning driving, when you'd expect deteriorated attention - I don't feel drowsy so it's beeping is quite annoying but that's the whole point...
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- monkeybutton 5y agoThe manual transmission versions of their models are lacking many of these new features because they are not compatible. Its almost enough to make me want to learn.
- throwaway946513 5y agoActually just bought a 2022 Subaru Impreza Hatch with a 5speed, and it's been a blast to drive. No cameras or spying on drivers with the manual model. It still has a radio and cd player separate from the a/c and climate controls. Lovely car.
- advael 5y agoI may never buy a new car again. Literally zero “smart” features that have ever been advertised in cars sound like a net benefit to my use case, but they all sound like a massive breach of my privacy and sometimes even autonomy. I support every law that makes this sort of telemetry and tracking harder - up to and including completely illegal - and don’t care in the slightest if it destroys the extant industry altogether
- jim-jim-jim 5y agoForreal. That's the monkey paw about the shift towards electric vehicles: every single one of them is going to be a user-hostile piece of shit.
- userbinator 5y agoI've "smartened" my ~50-year-old daily driver with a bunch of electronics and various upgrades. There's plenty of options in the aftermarket, which you have complete control over. Or put another way, I'd rather have more smiles per gallon than miles per gallon...
- WarOnPrivacy 5y ago> I've "smartened" my ~50-year-old daily driver with a bunch of electronics and various upgrades. Got a 69 XL, a 63 Dart and a 61 Sunliner. How they were made is the entire point.
- devilbunny 5y agoI posted a similar comment elsewhere. No tracking. No smarts to speak of - I do like Bluetooth, but I put a basic aftermarket Bluetooth unit in my 20-year-old car back when it was only 10 years old, and I'm still using the same one. Tactile volume knob. Physical controls for heating and cooling. I do have to take the key out of my pocket to push the remote entry button and put it in the ignition to start it (though if I really wanted to, I could get an aftermarket that would make it act like a modern push-to-start). I would like heated and ventilated seats, but really - other than creature comforts like that, and modern safety features like ABS and crumple zones, I'm perfectly happy with a 1975 user interface for my car.