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As usual, HN users are making lots of interesting assumptions (some comments to a conspiracy level) on the intention here... But in the reality, there are many

As usual, HN users are making lots of interesting assumptions (some comments to a conspiracy level) on the intention here... But in the reality, there are many smaller creators who is frequently being harassed by trolls (have you heard about those young Chinese patriots trolling over Korean and Japanese channels?) and one of their tool is the dislike button. And creators have been complaining about this for many years, so I would say in fact YT was super lazy on this particular issue, but at least better late than never...

albeebe1 5y ago
But creators have always been able to hide the like/dislike counts on their videos
- summerlight 5y ago
  That's not really meaningful unless you can change the trolling dynamic as whole, which needs a platform level change.
  - desmosxxx 5y ago
    Why do you need you change the "trolling dynamic" for people that aren't affected by it / don't care? And how does this really even address the issue at hand, won't they just move to the comments?
  - mike741 5y ago
    "trolling dynamic" is not really meaningful
  - neop1x 5y ago
    Next step: Remove dislike button altogether and let our lives be positive, full of sunshine and joy only.
markmark 5y ago
I'm just surprised by how many people apparently looked at dislike counts. I read this headline and thought "who cares" then saw there were 900 comments and only came in to see what the controversy was.
zkldi 5y ago
Nonsense, Creators have been able to hide their likes and dislikes for years. This is a global change that cannot be opted out of.
- notriddle 5y ago
  The problem with that is, as mentioned in other comments here, most of the people who hide likes/dislikes are just propaganda outlets and fragile jerks whose videos are crap. YouTube is a success because normally the system works. But, unfortunately, the system doesn't always work, and when it fails, it's usually because you're being actively targeted and the system isn't doing anything to stop it. So you're stuck between "leave the like bar visible, and nobody watches my videos because state actors are using bots to dislike my videos" and "hide the like bar, and nobody watches my videos because most people who hide their like bar are asshats." Either way, nobody watches your videos, and it doesn't necessarily mean your videos suck. In other words, nobody hides the like bar unless they are either being massively downvoted, or they expect to be massively downvoted. Which means that a hidden like bar might as well be 100% red.
  - zkldi 5y ago
    > "hide the like bar, and nobody watches my videos because most people who hide their like bar are asshats." Why do you think that is the case? It's probably because the actual cases of people being dislike mobbed are *way* rarer than the case of people wanting to hide that their content is garbage.
    - notriddle 5y ago
      Yes, that’s true. It’s literally what I said. But that doesn’t mean dislike mobbing doesn’t happen, or that it shouldn’t be addressed.
- summerlight 5y ago
  As I stated in a follow up comment, this change explicitly targets the trolling dynamic as whole, not just giving individual some controls. Most creators (and trolls as well) don't even know that option exists, so that option alone doesn't do anything meaningful. As always, the default option is what really matters. I personally suspect that this is a step toward removing the dislike button at all (which is an obvious way to eliminate this attack vector) but they're just not ready to remove the button due to some other factors.
yellowbanana 5y ago
> As usual, HN users are making lots of interesting assumptions (some comments to a conspiracy level) on the intention here... > But in the reality, there are many smaller creators who is frequently being harassed by trolls (have you heard about those young Chinese patriots trolling over Korean and Japanese channels?) and one of their tool is the dislike button. And creators have been complaining about this for many years, so I would say in fact YT was super lazy on this particular issue, but at least better late than never... That would be an escuse. The solution to that problem is not changing that option for the whole platform Make targeted changes but not just change everywhere. Removing the ability to assess how other people think of all the videos is big
emkoemko 5y ago
this ain't the solution.... because some people where effected we need to disable a feature used by everyone ? now what? we have to waste time watching a video to find out that it teaches your bs? flat earth is now 5k likes, Earth is now flat guys.. no dissent
- Spivak 5y ago
  I can understand the frustration about being affected by a change that feels like "punishing the class" but sometimes there aren't really any better options. The problem is that the existence of a button that hurts the creator means that there is a natural incentive for people to weaponize it as such. Every forum has had to come up with a solution to brigading and review bombing are there are really only two answers -- identify and police downvote brigades and review bombs or eliminate downvotes altogether. The forces that push a platform to the latter is there being a constant stream of outrage when platforms identify a brigade and delete their votes to avoid poising the the data. It's easier to just change the system to eliminate the problem entirely. This isn't really an isolated incident, even in the tech space people have been rallying for "removing comment sections" because they've been a cesspool since their inception. YouTube is one of the last platforms to make this change.
Pxtl 5y ago
Seriously, the level of conspiracy-theory replies to this post is shocking. Like, this is below-reddit-level discourse. This is borderline Q stuff. And I know HN has moderation because I've been told off for flamewars. What gives?
- gfodor 5y ago
  What you’re seeing could be a sign that the audience of HN has changed, or it could be that what you are referring to as “conspiracy theories” aren’t that.
- mike741 5y ago
  your comment amounts to name-calling and adds little to no value to the conversation in comparison to the comments you want censored.
  - Pxtl 5y ago
    Unsubstantiated allegations that democratic party activists are manipulating voting counts are kind a proven problem in 2021, bud.
    - Nesco 5y ago
      To use dang words, not only your comment didn’t bring anything new to the discussion but you also took the best example possible for starting a flame war.
- freddie_mercury 5y ago
  Next time you see someone talk about how high quality the discussion is at HN and how it isn't like the rest of the internet.... Just remember this thread.
- astura 5y ago
  Hacker News has been like this for a while now, maybe a little less than a year, and it's getting rapidly worse every day. I've found myself spending significantly less time here as a result, hacker news seems like it's not for me anymore.
t-writescode 5y ago
And Reddit handles this, in general, by giving vague ideas of vote counts and not showing the real number. Why can't YouTube do something similar?
- themacguffinman 5y ago
  Vague vote counts is a mitigation against bots, it does not protect against human brigading which is what YouTube is trying to address here.
jquery 5y ago
Not sure when HN took such a turn to the conspiratorial. The signal to noise ratio is getting really low these days, might finally be time to give up on this site, because dang seems uninterested in the problem.
bgro 5y ago
Sometimes people say mean things to me. I guess the solution is to revoke everybody's ability to speak, because that could be used to hurt my feelings. People keep complaining about harassment at work. I guess the solution is to revoke the ability to file complaints. The results of elections will now be hidden, because knowing one person got more votes than another might hurt the losing party's feelings.

albeebe1 5y ago

But creators have always been able to hide the like/dislike counts on their videos

summerlight 5y ago
That's not really meaningful unless you can change the trolling dynamic as whole, which needs a platform level change.
- desmosxxx 5y ago
  Why do you need you change the "trolling dynamic" for people that aren't affected by it / don't care? And how does this really even address the issue at hand, won't they just move to the comments?
- mike741 5y ago
  "trolling dynamic" is not really meaningful
- neop1x 5y ago
  Next step: Remove dislike button altogether and let our lives be positive, full of sunshine and joy only.

markmark 5y ago

I'm just surprised by how many people apparently looked at dislike counts. I read this headline and thought "who cares" then saw there were 900 comments and only came in to see what the controversy was.

zkldi 5y ago

Nonsense, Creators have been able to hide their likes and dislikes for years. This is a global change that cannot be opted out of.

notriddle 5y ago
The problem with that is, as mentioned in other comments here, most of the people who hide likes/dislikes are just propaganda outlets and fragile jerks whose videos are crap. YouTube is a success because normally the system works. But, unfortunately, the system doesn't always work, and when it fails, it's usually because you're being actively targeted and the system isn't doing anything to stop it. So you're stuck between "leave the like bar visible, and nobody watches my videos because state actors are using bots to dislike my videos" and "hide the like bar, and nobody watches my videos because most people who hide their like bar are asshats." Either way, nobody watches your videos, and it doesn't necessarily mean your videos suck. In other words, nobody hides the like bar unless they are either being massively downvoted, or they expect to be massively downvoted. Which means that a hidden like bar might as well be 100% red.
- zkldi 5y ago
  > "hide the like bar, and nobody watches my videos because most people who hide their like bar are asshats." Why do you think that is the case? It's probably because the actual cases of people being dislike mobbed are *way* rarer than the case of people wanting to hide that their content is garbage.
  - notriddle 5y ago
    Yes, that’s true. It’s literally what I said. But that doesn’t mean dislike mobbing doesn’t happen, or that it shouldn’t be addressed.
summerlight 5y ago
As I stated in a follow up comment, this change explicitly targets the trolling dynamic as whole, not just giving individual some controls. Most creators (and trolls as well) don't even know that option exists, so that option alone doesn't do anything meaningful. As always, the default option is what really matters. I personally suspect that this is a step toward removing the dislike button at all (which is an obvious way to eliminate this attack vector) but they're just not ready to remove the button due to some other factors.

yellowbanana 5y ago

> As usual, HN users are making lots of interesting assumptions (some comments to a conspiracy level) on the intention here... > But in the reality, there are many smaller creators who is frequently being harassed by trolls (have you heard about those young Chinese patriots trolling over Korean and Japanese channels?) and one of their tool is the dislike button. And creators have been complaining about this for many years, so I would say in fact YT was super lazy on this particular issue, but at least better late than never... That would be an escuse. The solution to that problem is not changing that option for the whole platform Make targeted changes but not just change everywhere. Removing the ability to assess how other people think of all the videos is big

emkoemko 5y ago

this ain't the solution.... because some people where effected we need to disable a feature used by everyone ? now what? we have to waste time watching a video to find out that it teaches your bs? flat earth is now 5k likes, Earth is now flat guys.. no dissent

Spivak 5y ago
I can understand the frustration about being affected by a change that feels like "punishing the class" but sometimes there aren't really any better options. The problem is that the existence of a button that hurts the creator means that there is a natural incentive for people to weaponize it as such. Every forum has had to come up with a solution to brigading and review bombing are there are really only two answers -- identify and police downvote brigades and review bombs or eliminate downvotes altogether. The forces that push a platform to the latter is there being a constant stream of outrage when platforms identify a brigade and delete their votes to avoid poising the the data. It's easier to just change the system to eliminate the problem entirely. This isn't really an isolated incident, even in the tech space people have been rallying for "removing comment sections" because they've been a cesspool since their inception. YouTube is one of the last platforms to make this change.

Pxtl 5y ago

Seriously, the level of conspiracy-theory replies to this post is shocking. Like, this is below-reddit-level discourse. This is borderline Q stuff. And I know HN has moderation because I've been told off for flamewars. What gives?

gfodor 5y ago
What you’re seeing could be a sign that the audience of HN has changed, or it could be that what you are referring to as “conspiracy theories” aren’t that.
mike741 5y ago
your comment amounts to name-calling and adds little to no value to the conversation in comparison to the comments you want censored.
- Pxtl 5y ago
  Unsubstantiated allegations that democratic party activists are manipulating voting counts are kind a proven problem in 2021, bud.
  - Nesco 5y ago
    To use dang words, not only your comment didn’t bring anything new to the discussion but you also took the best example possible for starting a flame war.
freddie_mercury 5y ago
Next time you see someone talk about how high quality the discussion is at HN and how it isn't like the rest of the internet.... Just remember this thread.
astura 5y ago
Hacker News has been like this for a while now, maybe a little less than a year, and it's getting rapidly worse every day. I've found myself spending significantly less time here as a result, hacker news seems like it's not for me anymore.

t-writescode 5y ago

And Reddit handles this, in general, by giving vague ideas of vote counts and not showing the real number. Why can't YouTube do something similar?

themacguffinman 5y ago
Vague vote counts is a mitigation against bots, it does not protect against human brigading which is what YouTube is trying to address here.

jquery 5y ago

Not sure when HN took such a turn to the conspiratorial. The signal to noise ratio is getting really low these days, might finally be time to give up on this site, because dang seems uninterested in the problem.

bgro 5y ago

Sometimes people say mean things to me. I guess the solution is to revoke everybody's ability to speak, because that could be used to hurt my feelings. People keep complaining about harassment at work. I guess the solution is to revoke the ability to file complaints. The results of elections will now be hidden, because knowing one person got more votes than another might hurt the losing party's feelings.