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This article has a very "you're all a bunch of phoneys" kinda vibe that I both love and hate. I think this kind of optimistic cynicism is much derided in Wester

This article has a very "you're all a bunch of phoneys" kinda vibe that I both love and hate. I think this kind of optimistic cynicism is much derided in Western culture and especially so in North America where we live under the tyranny of optimism. I think Žižek described it well and I would paraphrase his insight as, not only are we coerced to do things that we don't want to do, we are also expected to act as if we love doing them. It reminds me of British customer service. If you haven't lived in the UK you might not be familiar with the phenomenon of a checkout person being surly. They clearly don't want to be scanning your groceries or engaging in inane chit-chat with you. And they have almost no pretence about that fact. At first it was a shock to me but after some time I grew to appreciate it. It's a similar observation many who have lived in both New York and California make about the general difference in phoneyness between the coasts. New Yorkers may seem assertive/rude/cold at first but you will soon love the fact you always know where you stand. So I interpret the author as saying: not only are you being forced to write about something you don't want to write about, you can't even admit you don't want to write about it. Instead you make excuses like you are blocked, you big phoney. While that is likely to be a valid insight for some cases, I don't believe that it applies to all cases.

iechoz6H 5y ago
"They clearly don't want to be scanning your groceries or engaging in inane chit-chat with you. And they have almost no pretence about that fact." Whilst true, and perhaps forgiveable, with regard to checkout persons I did hate it when the same general disdain for customers permeated the whole service sector. This is changing thankfully and going to a restaurant in the UK is now no longer (or at least, not always) a chore. Speaking as a native Brit.
- lwotton 5y ago
  I prefer it, at least you don't get the fake niceties, coming off as almost passive aggressiveness.
  - iechoz6H 5y ago
    If it's fake, and always fake, they're in the wrong business.
    - jhgb 5y ago
      Even if it's the wrong business, someone has to be in it.
    - Loughla 5y ago
      Yes, and? I don't understand the point of what you said here.
      - jacobr1 5y ago
        The OP pivoted to restaurant service. In this case, I'm paying for the experience of nice meal. Having a pleasant server is part of that experience. Nobody has a perfect day, everyday, but someone performing this kind of service should genuinely enjoy serving people. If the server actually disdains helping (non-asshole) diners have a good meal, then they probably shouldn't be working in a restaurant. There should be no need to fake friendliness, hire friendly people.
        logifail 5y ago
        > Nobody has a perfect day, everyday, but someone performing this kind of service should genuinely enjoy serving people [..] Q: When you arrive in a restaurant and your server pitches up and says "Hi, how are you?" in a super-bright, ultra-cheerful way, do you immediately think: a) wow, they genuinely enjoy serving people or b) they've been told/taught to greet customers that way, _every single time_ ?
        Karunamon 5y ago
        That question doesn't even enter my mind unless it's a lot more extra than usual. As an example, Chik-fil-a's insistence on having their staff respond with "my pleasure" to "thank you" feels exceedingly weird. If I have to think about the staff's conduct, good or bad, usually that means something is wrong.
jhgb 5y ago
> If you haven't lived in the UK you might not be familiar with the phenomenon of a checkout person being surly. Why the UK? Have you ever been to the Czech Republic? Or Russia, from what I've heard?
- smsm42 5y ago
  I've been to Prague (granted, very touristy city) and the service was great. Never had any trouble. In Russia, it depends. They have very literal understanding of capitalism now, so in the expensive stored, the service would be great, in cheap ones it'll be... not great. Also, Russian model of communication is much more direct than American, so something that would be unbelievably rude in the US may be OK in Russia - sometimes it's not a bad service, it's a different culture. Just as similarly sounding word can mean different things in different languages.
kimixa 5y ago
As someone who was born and raised in the UK but since moved to the US, to my eyes there's a different general idea about what "good" customer service is. In the UK I generally saw good customer service is "I had a problem, that problem was solved quickly and efficiently". The time spent solving that problem is likely unpleasant, so get it over with as soon as possible. In the US it feels more "The person trying to handle the problem is personable and friendly". The time it takes doesn't matter so much, as there's a focus on trying to make my time during it as enjoyable as possible. I get super frustrated waiting at a bank or similar and the person in front is having a chat with the teller, I don't want to be in the bank, I don't want to have a chat, I have some specific goal (like getting change) that I want achieved and leave as soon as possible. That is what I consider "good" service.
- emeraldd 5y ago
  Good Customer service is very contextual. A bank teller line or a counter where you order fast food should be fast, efficient, while attempting to be rude and uncaring. But, you'd want your doctor to be at least personable and a waitress at a full sit down restaurant needs to be able to converse with diners. Service also needs to be cognizant of overall "load" on the environment. It might be ok to chat when there's no one else around, but not when ten people are waiting. It's a bit of a balancing act and so few people providing service really understand it.
- rjzzleep 5y ago
  I don't like the tyranny of optimism either, but I wouldn't wish UK customer service on anyone that's dear to me. Nor German one for that matter, a place that they conveniently call "Servicewueste"(service desert). I absolutely love US customer service, but then I also get annoyed when incompetent service agents keep trying to help when they should really hand it over to someone more competent. I guess that's because they are worried that they might lose their job if the customer is unhappy. I always joke that every company needs exactly one German. One German is enough to call out all the bullshit americans praise over the top, but if there's too many nothing will ever get done because everything is impossible. I really wonder if there is a middle ground. I certainly haven't encountered it in any country I've lived in.
renewiltord 5y ago
Honestly, this is a rather common opinion: that New Yorkers are rude and honest and Californians are nice and dishonest. Like real people are rude and it's just a question of whether they want to express that or not. In practice, thinking about myself, I'm definitely Cali-school-of-thought and I do think your dog is cute, I do think that's a cool haircut, and I do think that's a snazzy dress. And when people compliment me or talk to me I'm pretty sure they're being genuine. One thing, though, is that it's nice when people are aware of where they are and the people around them. It's definitely unreasonable to expect to have a conversation when there's a long line behind you. And perhaps we in California could learn to do that less. But I do like the article itself because it's kind of tough love: be honest to yourself that you don't like what you're thinking. But isn't that what writer's block is? That you can't come up with something you think is worthwhile? It isn't that you literally can't write. It's that what you do write seems lame, and maybe that's because you're thinking lame things, but that's the problem and you already know that.
- JasonCannon 5y ago
  Yeah I hate this idea that real people are rude and shit. No, you're just an asshole. I'm not fake because I make pleasant small talk with people while interacting with them. It's called being a decent person. Assholes aren't more real than nice people. They're just assholes.
  - logifail 5y ago
    > Assholes aren't more real than nice people. They're just assholes Q: What if all people are assholes, but some are at least honest about it?
    - JasonCannon 5y ago
      Then that would be a shitty world to live in. Good thing it isn't true.
  - bobthechef 5y ago
    Absolutely true, being genuine doesn't mean being an asshole. Lots of assholes are not genuine, or they're genuinely assholes. However... > It's called being a decent person. Engaging in small talk can be inconsiderate, as the post upstairs demonstrates. Maybe the guy doesn't have time for the ceremony and the chitchat. A lack of small talk doesn't mean you're automatically rude or an asshole. Small talkers can be huge assholes, too, by doing things like wasting everybody's time with BS and worthless blather. Moderation in anger, reasonable patience, and appropriate friendliness are good, subject to judgement within the given circumstances, but the idea that being "nice" is some kind of virtue and a defining feature of decent human beings is preposterous. Many evils in the world are fostered by nice people terrified of speaking the truth and causing displeasure.
at-fates-hands 5y ago
>> New Yorkers may seem assertive/rude/cold at first but you will soon love the fact you always know where you stand. My first gig at a large company was an inside sales role. The first territory I was handed was the Bronx and some zip codes in NJ. I was warned about the personalities of the people I would be dealing with (mostly attorneys and law librarians) when I was calling them - The office I was working out of was in the Midwest. After the first four or five times people cut you off and tell you, "Listen pal, I don't have all day to sit her and listen to your sales pitch. Either tell me what you want or get off my phone, I have other stuff I need to." You appreciate the curtness and ability to cut the bs and get down to business. I was way more successful just telling these people, "This is why I'm calling. . ." instead of running through the 12 step sales process we were trained to adhere to. So yes, I agree with you 100% on knowing where you stand with New Yorkers and in general people in the East Coast.
afandian 5y ago
Reminds me of a line from Jeremy Hardy: "At least in the UK when the shop assistant tells you to find it yourself, you know they really mean it."
rdw 5y ago
> New Yorkers may seem assertive/rude/cold at first but you will soon love the fact you always know where you stand. Unfortunately, I have observed that New Yorkers are now performatively complaining and being rude. They believe they have to be a little negative, so they find something wrong with the current situation, no matter how tenuous. They're supposed to be grouchy so they act like your presence is a burden even if they're actually really happy you're there. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just a different style. But it's no more or less phoney than anywhere else. Source: lived for 20 years in New York, and 20 years in CA.
hackbinary 5y ago
>> It reminds me of British customer service. If you haven't lived in the UK you might not be familiar with the phenomenon of a checkout person being surly. They clearly don't want to be scanning your groceries or engaging in inane chit-chat with you. And they have almost no pretence about that fact. How have you arrived at this conclusion? I'm guessing by "British" you mean English. I've lived in Scotland for almost 15 years, and I can certainly tell you that "British" customer service is not Scots customer service. For a starter, most Scots do not identify as "British", so then to use your broad brush is a bad look. If your experience was in England, please just say so. In anycase, my experience shopping in Scotland is vastly different from shopping in the home counties.

iechoz6H 5y ago

"They clearly don't want to be scanning your groceries or engaging in inane chit-chat with you. And they have almost no pretence about that fact." Whilst true, and perhaps forgiveable, with regard to checkout persons I did hate it when the same general disdain for customers permeated the whole service sector. This is changing thankfully and going to a restaurant in the UK is now no longer (or at least, not always) a chore. Speaking as a native Brit.

lwotton 5y ago
I prefer it, at least you don't get the fake niceties, coming off as almost passive aggressiveness.
- iechoz6H 5y ago
  If it's fake, and always fake, they're in the wrong business.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    Even if it's the wrong business, someone has to be in it.
  - Loughla 5y ago
    Yes, and? I don't understand the point of what you said here.
    - jacobr1 5y ago
      The OP pivoted to restaurant service. In this case, I'm paying for the experience of nice meal. Having a pleasant server is part of that experience. Nobody has a perfect day, everyday, but someone performing this kind of service should genuinely enjoy serving people. If the server actually disdains helping (non-asshole) diners have a good meal, then they probably shouldn't be working in a restaurant. There should be no need to fake friendliness, hire friendly people.
      - logifail 5y ago
        > Nobody has a perfect day, everyday, but someone performing this kind of service should genuinely enjoy serving people [..] Q: When you arrive in a restaurant and your server pitches up and says "Hi, how are you?" in a super-bright, ultra-cheerful way, do you immediately think: a) wow, they genuinely enjoy serving people or b) they've been told/taught to greet customers that way, _every single time_ ?
        Karunamon 5y ago
        That question doesn't even enter my mind unless it's a lot more extra than usual. As an example, Chik-fil-a's insistence on having their staff respond with "my pleasure" to "thank you" feels exceedingly weird. If I have to think about the staff's conduct, good or bad, usually that means something is wrong.

jhgb 5y ago

> If you haven't lived in the UK you might not be familiar with the phenomenon of a checkout person being surly. Why the UK? Have you ever been to the Czech Republic? Or Russia, from what I've heard?

smsm42 5y ago
I've been to Prague (granted, very touristy city) and the service was great. Never had any trouble. In Russia, it depends. They have very literal understanding of capitalism now, so in the expensive stored, the service would be great, in cheap ones it'll be... not great. Also, Russian model of communication is much more direct than American, so something that would be unbelievably rude in the US may be OK in Russia - sometimes it's not a bad service, it's a different culture. Just as similarly sounding word can mean different things in different languages.

kimixa 5y ago

As someone who was born and raised in the UK but since moved to the US, to my eyes there's a different general idea about what "good" customer service is. In the UK I generally saw good customer service is "I had a problem, that problem was solved quickly and efficiently". The time spent solving that problem is likely unpleasant, so get it over with as soon as possible. In the US it feels more "The person trying to handle the problem is personable and friendly". The time it takes doesn't matter so much, as there's a focus on trying to make my time during it as enjoyable as possible. I get super frustrated waiting at a bank or similar and the person in front is having a chat with the teller, I don't want to be in the bank, I don't want to have a chat, I have some specific goal (like getting change) that I want achieved and leave as soon as possible. That is what I consider "good" service.

emeraldd 5y ago
Good Customer service is very contextual. A bank teller line or a counter where you order fast food should be fast, efficient, while attempting to be rude and uncaring. But, you'd want your doctor to be at least personable and a waitress at a full sit down restaurant needs to be able to converse with diners. Service also needs to be cognizant of overall "load" on the environment. It might be ok to chat when there's no one else around, but not when ten people are waiting. It's a bit of a balancing act and so few people providing service really understand it.
rjzzleep 5y ago
I don't like the tyranny of optimism either, but I wouldn't wish UK customer service on anyone that's dear to me. Nor German one for that matter, a place that they conveniently call "Servicewueste"(service desert). I absolutely love US customer service, but then I also get annoyed when incompetent service agents keep trying to help when they should really hand it over to someone more competent. I guess that's because they are worried that they might lose their job if the customer is unhappy. I always joke that every company needs exactly one German. One German is enough to call out all the bullshit americans praise over the top, but if there's too many nothing will ever get done because everything is impossible. I really wonder if there is a middle ground. I certainly haven't encountered it in any country I've lived in.

renewiltord 5y ago

Honestly, this is a rather common opinion: that New Yorkers are rude and honest and Californians are nice and dishonest. Like real people are rude and it's just a question of whether they want to express that or not. In practice, thinking about myself, I'm definitely Cali-school-of-thought and I do think your dog is cute, I do think that's a cool haircut, and I do think that's a snazzy dress. And when people compliment me or talk to me I'm pretty sure they're being genuine. One thing, though, is that it's nice when people are aware of where they are and the people around them. It's definitely unreasonable to expect to have a conversation when there's a long line behind you. And perhaps we in California could learn to do that less. But I do like the article itself because it's kind of tough love: be honest to yourself that you don't like what you're thinking. But isn't that what writer's block is? That you can't come up with something you think is worthwhile? It isn't that you literally can't write. It's that what you do write seems lame, and maybe that's because you're thinking lame things, but that's the problem and you already know that.

JasonCannon 5y ago
Yeah I hate this idea that real people are rude and shit. No, you're just an asshole. I'm not fake because I make pleasant small talk with people while interacting with them. It's called being a decent person. Assholes aren't more real than nice people. They're just assholes.
- logifail 5y ago
  > Assholes aren't more real than nice people. They're just assholes Q: What if all people are assholes, but some are at least honest about it?
  - JasonCannon 5y ago
    Then that would be a shitty world to live in. Good thing it isn't true.
- bobthechef 5y ago
  Absolutely true, being genuine doesn't mean being an asshole. Lots of assholes are not genuine, or they're genuinely assholes. However... > It's called being a decent person. Engaging in small talk can be inconsiderate, as the post upstairs demonstrates. Maybe the guy doesn't have time for the ceremony and the chitchat. A lack of small talk doesn't mean you're automatically rude or an asshole. Small talkers can be huge assholes, too, by doing things like wasting everybody's time with BS and worthless blather. Moderation in anger, reasonable patience, and appropriate friendliness are good, subject to judgement within the given circumstances, but the idea that being "nice" is some kind of virtue and a defining feature of decent human beings is preposterous. Many evils in the world are fostered by nice people terrified of speaking the truth and causing displeasure.

at-fates-hands 5y ago

>> New Yorkers may seem assertive/rude/cold at first but you will soon love the fact you always know where you stand. My first gig at a large company was an inside sales role. The first territory I was handed was the Bronx and some zip codes in NJ. I was warned about the personalities of the people I would be dealing with (mostly attorneys and law librarians) when I was calling them - The office I was working out of was in the Midwest. After the first four or five times people cut you off and tell you, "Listen pal, I don't have all day to sit her and listen to your sales pitch. Either tell me what you want or get off my phone, I have other stuff I need to." You appreciate the curtness and ability to cut the bs and get down to business. I was way more successful just telling these people, "This is why I'm calling. . ." instead of running through the 12 step sales process we were trained to adhere to. So yes, I agree with you 100% on knowing where you stand with New Yorkers and in general people in the East Coast.

afandian 5y ago

Reminds me of a line from Jeremy Hardy: "At least in the UK when the shop assistant tells you to find it yourself, you know they really mean it."

rdw 5y ago

> New Yorkers may seem assertive/rude/cold at first but you will soon love the fact you always know where you stand. Unfortunately, I have observed that New Yorkers are now performatively complaining and being rude. They believe they have to be a little negative, so they find something wrong with the current situation, no matter how tenuous. They're supposed to be grouchy so they act like your presence is a burden even if they're actually really happy you're there. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just a different style. But it's no more or less phoney than anywhere else. Source: lived for 20 years in New York, and 20 years in CA.

hackbinary 5y ago

>> It reminds me of British customer service. If you haven't lived in the UK you might not be familiar with the phenomenon of a checkout person being surly. They clearly don't want to be scanning your groceries or engaging in inane chit-chat with you. And they have almost no pretence about that fact. How have you arrived at this conclusion? I'm guessing by "British" you mean English. I've lived in Scotland for almost 15 years, and I can certainly tell you that "British" customer service is not Scots customer service. For a starter, most Scots do not identify as "British", so then to use your broad brush is a bad look. If your experience was in England, please just say so. In anycase, my experience shopping in Scotland is vastly different from shopping in the home counties.