4 ms·

I mostly disagree; I think the article hits it at something pretty true. Granted, "liar" is a bit of a strong term. But insincere -- definitely. In particular

by ajkjk 5y ago

I mostly disagree; I think the article hits it at something pretty true. Granted, "liar" is a bit of a strong term. But insincere -- definitely. In particular I think the 'lie' most people who are trying to write but can't get it to happen are telling themselves is that they _want_ to be writing at all. Most of the time people want to want to write, but they don't actually _want to_. If you truly want to do something, it happens effortlessly (barring some problematic anxiety getting in the way). The rest of the time, you just wish you wanted to. The distinction between "wanting to do something" and "wanting to want to do something" has been very helpful in my life. Particularly because it helps me not feel bad when I can't get myself to do something. Usually giving up on wanting-to-want and doing something else for a while eventually leads to the actual desire coming back, once it's freed from the anxiety of trying to force it.

kayodelycaon 5y ago
> The distinction between "wanting to do something" and "wanting to want to do something" has been very helpful in my life. That concept been helpful for me too. The problem I have with this article is it’s presentation is not very helpful to people who don’t already understand the underlaying ideas behind the motivation to write the article.
aidenn0 5y ago
I think "wanting to want" is part of it, but there's something more fundamental: wanting to do something vs wanting to have done something in the future. I want to stay in bed, binge Netflix, play video games and read books all day. One year from now, that's not what I want to have spent the past year doing. I don't know about everybody else, but this is an underlying tension in my life.
- ajkjk 5y ago
  I think everyone has that. For what it's worth it seems like the path to _not_ doing that involves being fine with doing it. Somehow the 'wanting to have done something this year' causes a sort of anxiety that makes one not do things. I find that when I can release the feeling that I ought to be doing something, or that I'm failing or doing the wrong thing, I... start to desire to do things again and end up happier with the result. This backwards logic underlies all of 'depression', in my experience. If you have a neurotic need to be something or have done something, that neurotic need can only manifest in 'symbolic action' -- like visibly starting work (only to give up shortly thereafter), or performatively talking about how you're doing something or planning to do it. But neurotic motivation isn't _actual_ motivation. It's only purpose, I think, biologically must be to get you 'near' what you feel like you should be doing, in hopes that that causes it to happen somehow. When you have a neurotic motivation that's at odds with who you are, or that you don't know how to immediately act on, it causes you to sort of .. shut down. Because you can't immediately become who you 'wish you were', you just do ... nothing, operating in the lowest-energy state, chasing immediate rewards like eating, doing things that are suggested to you, and binging the highest-dopamine rewards like video games or netflix. When I've realized this about particular 'needs' in the past, I've been able to see the need dissipate, and I suddenly feel much free-r to actually be myself and do things I want to do, which confusingly is more effective at getting to whoever you actually wanted to be anyway. The key is not _needing_ to be that person. If you feel bad about not being something, it just, like, breaks everything in your brain. In the case of TFA: if you feel like you need to be a writer, you sit down and think about writing, but your creativity is broken because you're just operating neurotically. So quit it; don't try to write until you _want_ to. Related: https://kajsotala.fi/2017/07/how-i-found-fixed-the-root-problem-behind-my-depression-and-anxiety-after-20-years/ https://kajsotala.fi/2017/07/how-i-found-fixed-the-root-prob... which is the article that initially got me thinking in ways that got rid of some of the 'neurotic needs' that were making it hard to be freely motivated. Although it feels like I keep finding new problems of this sort, I've definitely fixed a few of them in the past, and somehow once fixed they seem to _stay_ fixed.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    I think your advice is good and matches with other advice I've received in the past, but my disconnect is where does the impetus come from to release the neurotic motivations? A large fraction of the people I have known were able to do so because of a major wake-up call such as: flunking out of school, being fired from a job (or multiple jobs in a row), or hitting "rock bottom" with substance abuse. My neurotic motivations kept me at "On academic probation for 7 out of 11 semesters" instead of "flunked out." If I went back in time and gave this advice to my younger self, I would not have taken it because when you are afraid of drowning, you won't let go of the driftwood to swim towards the yacht.
    - ajkjk 5y ago
      Yeah, hard to say. For me it was a long process of inching closer and closer to the problem. Which meant it happened years later than it should have. I suspect therapy can get you there a lot faster. For some people, getting high or tripping can help. The first step is looking for it though. If you find yourself saying "I want to do X but I keep not doing it", that's a sign something's messed up. I imagine that meditating on that feeling can target the neurotic drive directly.
- bentcorner 5y ago
  I'm right there with you. I have work to do and sometimes it feels like an insurmountable mountain, so I alt+tab to something else for a little respite. But I can tell it is self-destructive behavior. Maybe acknowledging it is the first step.
  - ajkjk 5y ago
    yeah it really is. Your time would be well spent investigating it, maybe on a long walk. Be honest to yourself that you don't really want to do it (or you'd be doing it). Then ask yourself: okay, if you don't want to do it, why not change something up, or quit? is there anything you want to be doing? if not, then be honest about it and just do nothing for a while -- eventually you will want to do something again and it'll be an honest desire that you can act on. Years are ticking by of your life where you barely do what you're 'supposed to' but spend most of your mental energy distracting yourself; there's got to be a better way to live. [obviously I am also talking to myself here...]

by ajkjk 5y ago

kayodelycaon 5y ago

> The distinction between "wanting to do something" and "wanting to want to do something" has been very helpful in my life. That concept been helpful for me too. The problem I have with this article is it’s presentation is not very helpful to people who don’t already understand the underlaying ideas behind the motivation to write the article.

aidenn0 5y ago

I think "wanting to want" is part of it, but there's something more fundamental: wanting to do something vs wanting to have done something in the future. I want to stay in bed, binge Netflix, play video games and read books all day. One year from now, that's not what I want to have spent the past year doing. I don't know about everybody else, but this is an underlying tension in my life.

ajkjk 5y ago
I think everyone has that. For what it's worth it seems like the path to _not_ doing that involves being fine with doing it. Somehow the 'wanting to have done something this year' causes a sort of anxiety that makes one not do things. I find that when I can release the feeling that I ought to be doing something, or that I'm failing or doing the wrong thing, I... start to desire to do things again and end up happier with the result. This backwards logic underlies all of 'depression', in my experience. If you have a neurotic need to be something or have done something, that neurotic need can only manifest in 'symbolic action' -- like visibly starting work (only to give up shortly thereafter), or performatively talking about how you're doing something or planning to do it. But neurotic motivation isn't _actual_ motivation. It's only purpose, I think, biologically must be to get you 'near' what you feel like you should be doing, in hopes that that causes it to happen somehow. When you have a neurotic motivation that's at odds with who you are, or that you don't know how to immediately act on, it causes you to sort of .. shut down. Because you can't immediately become who you 'wish you were', you just do ... nothing, operating in the lowest-energy state, chasing immediate rewards like eating, doing things that are suggested to you, and binging the highest-dopamine rewards like video games or netflix. When I've realized this about particular 'needs' in the past, I've been able to see the need dissipate, and I suddenly feel much free-r to actually be myself and do things I want to do, which confusingly is more effective at getting to whoever you actually wanted to be anyway. The key is not _needing_ to be that person. If you feel bad about not being something, it just, like, breaks everything in your brain. In the case of TFA: if you feel like you need to be a writer, you sit down and think about writing, but your creativity is broken because you're just operating neurotically. So quit it; don't try to write until you _want_ to. Related: https://kajsotala.fi/2017/07/how-i-found-fixed-the-root-problem-behind-my-depression-and-anxiety-after-20-years/ https://kajsotala.fi/2017/07/how-i-found-fixed-the-root-prob... which is the article that initially got me thinking in ways that got rid of some of the 'neurotic needs' that were making it hard to be freely motivated. Although it feels like I keep finding new problems of this sort, I've definitely fixed a few of them in the past, and somehow once fixed they seem to _stay_ fixed.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  I think your advice is good and matches with other advice I've received in the past, but my disconnect is where does the impetus come from to release the neurotic motivations? A large fraction of the people I have known were able to do so because of a major wake-up call such as: flunking out of school, being fired from a job (or multiple jobs in a row), or hitting "rock bottom" with substance abuse. My neurotic motivations kept me at "On academic probation for 7 out of 11 semesters" instead of "flunked out." If I went back in time and gave this advice to my younger self, I would not have taken it because when you are afraid of drowning, you won't let go of the driftwood to swim towards the yacht.
  - ajkjk 5y ago
    Yeah, hard to say. For me it was a long process of inching closer and closer to the problem. Which meant it happened years later than it should have. I suspect therapy can get you there a lot faster. For some people, getting high or tripping can help. The first step is looking for it though. If you find yourself saying "I want to do X but I keep not doing it", that's a sign something's messed up. I imagine that meditating on that feeling can target the neurotic drive directly.
bentcorner 5y ago
I'm right there with you. I have work to do and sometimes it feels like an insurmountable mountain, so I alt+tab to something else for a little respite. But I can tell it is self-destructive behavior. Maybe acknowledging it is the first step.
- ajkjk 5y ago
  yeah it really is. Your time would be well spent investigating it, maybe on a long walk. Be honest to yourself that you don't really want to do it (or you'd be doing it). Then ask yourself: okay, if you don't want to do it, why not change something up, or quit? is there anything you want to be doing? if not, then be honest about it and just do nothing for a while -- eventually you will want to do something again and it'll be an honest desire that you can act on. Years are ticking by of your life where you barely do what you're 'supposed to' but spend most of your mental energy distracting yourself; there's got to be a better way to live. [obviously I am also talking to myself here...]