5 ms·

It is because you see the experiences as false compared to the reality you are now immersed in. If a big trip doesnt manage to completely change your belief sy

by fjabre 5y ago

It is because you see the experiences as false compared to the reality you are now immersed in. If a big trip doesnt manage to completely change your belief system it has mostly failed in its effect. It is the change in beliefs that lead to a lasting result. If one leaves the experience denying the new experience and calling it false or calling it just a dream then it will surely fade and results will not last. This is self evident over time. Effects should not fade but in fact should grow stronger without the further use of psychedelics. Proper integration and meditation do this. If one takes the experience as truth, a Big trip then has the power to cure. Depression will never return. Conviction in the experience must be there for it to really work its magic. To have an experience like this and then to come back calling it just a dream is a tragedy. What a waste. For someone like this they have missed the point. They go back to their lives as normal. Everything is as it is. They simply feel a little better or feel relief for some time, but because they did not accept the new reality they are then forced back down into their old routines and habits. They are put right back in the reality they left and felt relief from after their Big trip. Depression sets in again. Everything goes back to the way it was, the trip becoming a distant memory.

cmehdy 5y ago
What happens if you were to do two trips in a row, would you then have to change your mind to completely different outcomes each time? Would that one time in the middle be invalidated by the later trip? How do you go about quantifying which trips offer enough change and which don't? How many trips do you then have to do to get there? How do you qualify a new set of beliefs as being the "right" one? Are YOU the person who gets to decide that? And so on. I appreciate that you find freedom in your personal belief system, and I'm happy for you. But you're definitely getting ahead of yourself if you think that whatever you're holding on to is a universal truth for all that is living. I've had that conversation countless times with people who've also gone through DMT breakthroughs: you're no less in a prison of your own mind when you think this way, you've only shifted your philosophical perspective into a place that anchors different beliefs in place. They appear entirely valid because you perceive less subjective suffering, but generalizing the idea that those beliefs are valid everywhere and for everyone is like believing that a singular value in a system of differential equations give the whole picture. There's a difference between solving your problems and solving everybody's problems, and thankfully the scientific work comes into place to bridge that gap (however slow the process might be). I appreciate your intentions and I think there are nuggets of truth in what you write (re-integration helps you carry things further, meditation offers relief, a change of beliefs most often does lead to lasting results yes), however some people are allergic to blindly dogmatic thinking and I happen to be one of them. Your entire post could have been written to advocate for religion X, Y or Z btw, and people in each religion have just as valid of a claim as you do when it comes to their belief systems alleviating their suffering. Mandating that one is bound to find the truth with a big T if one "does it right" is pretty much one of the things that as a guide for others through psychedelics I've never made the mistake of advocating for. Psychedelics are a journey, and like any journey you might come in with who you are and come out with different parts but the more you project rigid expectations the less you'll actually extract from the journey itself. Like any journey, two different people taking the same means of transportation and going to the same place, might extract two entirely different things. It would do a lot of good to a subset of the psychonaut community to retain empathy and compassion when it comes to sharing about personal journeys.
- fjabre 5y ago
  It is precisely because I care that I commented so that another one may find it. Just for the sake of clarity I am referring to a level 5 trip. Two trips in row with different outcomes? This is not a question that would be posed by someone who has experienced a level 5 trip. Why? It becomes self evident. But it is not something I can 'prove' to you. You have to see for yourself. Regarding outcomes - One has either broken through or not. One will know when they have had an ego death and OBE. It is a very distinct experience. Some will still deny this even but much much fewer can deny an experience that powerful. I have had many trips that were below a level 5 but only one that I would classify as a level 5 trip - complete loss of ego or ego death. I was an atheist before that Big trip. The Psychedelic experience has many common threads. I've read hundreds of big trip reports maybe thousands. The common threads become very obvious after a while. As obvious as the sunrise. Yes this is my interpretation and the interpretation of some very old religions like Hinduism and its offshoot Buddhism. They are not dogmatic in that you can believe whatever you want next to them while still considering them as truth. From One there are many. Surely this does not even escape a mathematician. You cannot deny your own existence yet Science has very little to say about the nature of consciousness. In fact Science really has no clue when it comes to the mystery of consciousness. Its view is that we are meat puppets and the sum of our parts. Nothing more than we can see with our eyes. Why is this accepted as dogma but other belief systems are not? Science itself is a kind of dogmatic religion. It is one that many take for granted as absolute truth. Older thought systems such as Buddhism have been around for much much longer. To assume they are somehow inferior to Science because of their age is a mistake. All beliefs are valid. One can worship or believe as they wish to find happiness. It is only that they accept Science's answer as Absolute Truth and not their own direct experience after they have had a big trip. That is the waste. The lack of conviction in their experience as being real. It is surprising that after such an experience one can walk away without conviction! They would have to try hard to forget and make themselves believe that everything is just as it was and it was all just a dream. That is the difficult part. Believing should be the easy part but the world pulls us back in. Our old concepts rush back in. We put our belief back in the old way of doing things and back to the world we knew before that Big trip. The world of the 24 hour news cycle and Reddit. The world of our addictions, apps, and waking life. Because we feel comfortable there. It is challenging for us to change our outlook so drastically but that is what a Big trip challenges us to do.

by fjabre 5y ago

cmehdy 5y ago

What happens if you were to do two trips in a row, would you then have to change your mind to completely different outcomes each time? Would that one time in the middle be invalidated by the later trip? How do you go about quantifying which trips offer enough change and which don't? How many trips do you then have to do to get there? How do you qualify a new set of beliefs as being the "right" one? Are YOU the person who gets to decide that? And so on. I appreciate that you find freedom in your personal belief system, and I'm happy for you. But you're definitely getting ahead of yourself if you think that whatever you're holding on to is a universal truth for all that is living. I've had that conversation countless times with people who've also gone through DMT breakthroughs: you're no less in a prison of your own mind when you think this way, you've only shifted your philosophical perspective into a place that anchors different beliefs in place. They appear entirely valid because you perceive less subjective suffering, but generalizing the idea that those beliefs are valid everywhere and for everyone is like believing that a singular value in a system of differential equations give the whole picture. There's a difference between solving your problems and solving everybody's problems, and thankfully the scientific work comes into place to bridge that gap (however slow the process might be). I appreciate your intentions and I think there are nuggets of truth in what you write (re-integration helps you carry things further, meditation offers relief, a change of beliefs most often does lead to lasting results yes), however some people are allergic to blindly dogmatic thinking and I happen to be one of them. Your entire post could have been written to advocate for religion X, Y or Z btw, and people in each religion have just as valid of a claim as you do when it comes to their belief systems alleviating their suffering. Mandating that one is bound to find the truth with a big T if one "does it right" is pretty much one of the things that as a guide for others through psychedelics I've never made the mistake of advocating for. Psychedelics are a journey, and like any journey you might come in with who you are and come out with different parts but the more you project rigid expectations the less you'll actually extract from the journey itself. Like any journey, two different people taking the same means of transportation and going to the same place, might extract two entirely different things. It would do a lot of good to a subset of the psychonaut community to retain empathy and compassion when it comes to sharing about personal journeys.

fjabre 5y ago
It is precisely because I care that I commented so that another one may find it. Just for the sake of clarity I am referring to a level 5 trip. Two trips in row with different outcomes? This is not a question that would be posed by someone who has experienced a level 5 trip. Why? It becomes self evident. But it is not something I can 'prove' to you. You have to see for yourself. Regarding outcomes - One has either broken through or not. One will know when they have had an ego death and OBE. It is a very distinct experience. Some will still deny this even but much much fewer can deny an experience that powerful. I have had many trips that were below a level 5 but only one that I would classify as a level 5 trip - complete loss of ego or ego death. I was an atheist before that Big trip. The Psychedelic experience has many common threads. I've read hundreds of big trip reports maybe thousands. The common threads become very obvious after a while. As obvious as the sunrise. Yes this is my interpretation and the interpretation of some very old religions like Hinduism and its offshoot Buddhism. They are not dogmatic in that you can believe whatever you want next to them while still considering them as truth. From One there are many. Surely this does not even escape a mathematician. You cannot deny your own existence yet Science has very little to say about the nature of consciousness. In fact Science really has no clue when it comes to the mystery of consciousness. Its view is that we are meat puppets and the sum of our parts. Nothing more than we can see with our eyes. Why is this accepted as dogma but other belief systems are not? Science itself is a kind of dogmatic religion. It is one that many take for granted as absolute truth. Older thought systems such as Buddhism have been around for much much longer. To assume they are somehow inferior to Science because of their age is a mistake. All beliefs are valid. One can worship or believe as they wish to find happiness. It is only that they accept Science's answer as Absolute Truth and not their own direct experience after they have had a big trip. That is the waste. The lack of conviction in their experience as being real. It is surprising that after such an experience one can walk away without conviction! They would have to try hard to forget and make themselves believe that everything is just as it was and it was all just a dream. That is the difficult part. Believing should be the easy part but the world pulls us back in. Our old concepts rush back in. We put our belief back in the old way of doing things and back to the world we knew before that Big trip. The world of the 24 hour news cycle and Reddit. The world of our addictions, apps, and waking life. Because we feel comfortable there. It is challenging for us to change our outlook so drastically but that is what a Big trip challenges us to do.