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> Why not just buy an Android phone with the features you want? That’s what I don’t get here. "Vote with your wallet" is a bogus argument because undercutting

> Why not just buy an Android phone with the features you want? That’s what I don’t get here. "Vote with your wallet" is a bogus argument because undercutting the rights of the consumers that actually pay for the device and own it, in effect means that consumers end up with no choice. If Apple says you can only install apps from App Store, and Google says Android phones will spy on you, who do I turn to if I don't want both these features? There is no real choice, not only because corporates form alliances and behave like cartels to not only stem competition but also to ensure the rights of the consumers are suppressed (e.g. Apple has actively lobbied against the right-to-repair movement). Suppressing consumer rights only benefits big businesses.

ericmay 5y ago
Ok so who do I turn to when I only want a curated App Store from Apple on my iPhone so I can enjoy the conveniences of the iPhone like Apple Pay, anonymous sign-in enforced, and other features that I value? Or is it that consumer rights only matter when they come from you? Every time this conversation comes up people act as though the 3rd-party App Store stuff is a good thing that everyone inherently wants and if you don't want it you must be violating some user rights or w/e and be a corporate shill for apple against the innocent little poor developer community. All platforms, software or otherwise have restrictions of some sort. I can't just sell whatever I want at Wal-Mart or Amazon. Maybe consumers do want products with lead in them if they're cheaper - who are you to deny their freedom of choice? I'll take my own risk thank you very much. So w/e. Frame it how you want. Ultimately it'll happen but it's going to suck hardcore. Thankfully I don't use products like Facebook so I won't have to worry about them siphoning my data directly on my iPhone but there's no doubt they and other companies going to move to a 3rd-party store or create their own so they can do whatever they want. Put lead in products, take user's data, w/e, and in the end nothing of value will actually be gained. Netflix and Facebook and whoever will make more money because they won't have to pay Apple to use the iPhone platform. You're just pitting some billion dollar corporations versus others and siding with some over others. You'll have this principled freedom of a worse experience of adware, malware, and scummy user-hostile behavior.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  > Ok so who do I turn to when I only want a curated App Store from Apple on my iPhone You do realise that if the rights of the consumers are upheld, as many are advocating for, you could use whatever app store you want, right?
2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
>"Vote with your wallet" is a bogus argument No it’s not. You guys guys spend all this time complaining about Apple and Google. But getting them to change is going to be a long game if they change at all. What you guys are not doing is promoting phones that are open. These products aren’t going to get better without customers. As it stands, what it looks like is you guys hate Apple and Google and then just turn around and buy more of their products.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  > What you guys are not doing is promoting phones that are open. That criticism is somewhat true and the reason for it is that it is a short term solution - it still means you are accepting that corporates gets to dictate how your devices should be and what you can do with it. (For the short term, absolutely - let's support and buy their products too. For e.g. I don't own an iPhone or Android phone and instead rely on https://sailfishos.org/ https://sailfishos.org/ ). I am all for free market and capitalism. But you have to first understand the nature of both. For-profit companies will always choose the most profitable path. The more profit you make, the longer you survive in the market and the better you can squeeze out your competition. Open devices mean less profit. And that is why none of the current BigTech are focusing on it. As capitalists they would be fools to sacrifice their profits for something that will make them less money. Moreover, what guarantees do you have that tomorrow that these same open devices won't end up closed? Or that one of the BigTech won't buy them and scuttle their product when they become competitive (because that's exactly what they will do)? This is why we have consumer rights and government regulations - without them businesses would only focus on more profits and, black marketing, hoarding, and other anti-consumer and anti-competitive behaviours would still be very dominant in the market. That is why the real long-term solution is demanding existing consumer rights / regulations be enfored and / or new ones be created as necessary.

ericmay 5y ago

Ok so who do I turn to when I only want a curated App Store from Apple on my iPhone so I can enjoy the conveniences of the iPhone like Apple Pay, anonymous sign-in enforced, and other features that I value? Or is it that consumer rights only matter when they come from you? Every time this conversation comes up people act as though the 3rd-party App Store stuff is a good thing that everyone inherently wants and if you don't want it you must be violating some user rights or w/e and be a corporate shill for apple against the innocent little poor developer community. All platforms, software or otherwise have restrictions of some sort. I can't just sell whatever I want at Wal-Mart or Amazon. Maybe consumers do want products with lead in them if they're cheaper - who are you to deny their freedom of choice? I'll take my own risk thank you very much. So w/e. Frame it how you want. Ultimately it'll happen but it's going to suck hardcore. Thankfully I don't use products like Facebook so I won't have to worry about them siphoning my data directly on my iPhone but there's no doubt they and other companies going to move to a 3rd-party store or create their own so they can do whatever they want. Put lead in products, take user's data, w/e, and in the end nothing of value will actually be gained. Netflix and Facebook and whoever will make more money because they won't have to pay Apple to use the iPhone platform. You're just pitting some billion dollar corporations versus others and siding with some over others. You'll have this principled freedom of a worse experience of adware, malware, and scummy user-hostile behavior.

webmobdev 5y ago
> Ok so who do I turn to when I only want a curated App Store from Apple on my iPhone You do realise that if the rights of the consumers are upheld, as many are advocating for, you could use whatever app store you want, right?

2muchcoffeeman 5y ago

>"Vote with your wallet" is a bogus argument No it’s not. You guys guys spend all this time complaining about Apple and Google. But getting them to change is going to be a long game if they change at all. What you guys are not doing is promoting phones that are open. These products aren’t going to get better without customers. As it stands, what it looks like is you guys hate Apple and Google and then just turn around and buy more of their products.

webmobdev 5y ago
> What you guys are not doing is promoting phones that are open. That criticism is somewhat true and the reason for it is that it is a short term solution - it still means you are accepting that corporates gets to dictate how your devices should be and what you can do with it. (For the short term, absolutely - let's support and buy their products too. For e.g. I don't own an iPhone or Android phone and instead rely on https://sailfishos.org/ https://sailfishos.org/ ). I am all for free market and capitalism. But you have to first understand the nature of both. For-profit companies will always choose the most profitable path. The more profit you make, the longer you survive in the market and the better you can squeeze out your competition. Open devices mean less profit. And that is why none of the current BigTech are focusing on it. As capitalists they would be fools to sacrifice their profits for something that will make them less money. Moreover, what guarantees do you have that tomorrow that these same open devices won't end up closed? Or that one of the BigTech won't buy them and scuttle their product when they become competitive (because that's exactly what they will do)? This is why we have consumer rights and government regulations - without them businesses would only focus on more profits and, black marketing, hoarding, and other anti-consumer and anti-competitive behaviours would still be very dominant in the market. That is why the real long-term solution is demanding existing consumer rights / regulations be enfored and / or new ones be created as necessary.