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The Huberman Lab podcast episode on depression touches on this. According to Dr. Huberman the quality of the trip is not important, the chemical changes the bra

The Huberman Lab podcast episode on depression touches on this. According to Dr. Huberman the quality of the trip is not important, the chemical changes the brain function regardless.

dorchadas 5y ago
But is it solely the chemical changes in the brain that "fix" the depression, or does it also have to do with integrating what you've seen and experienced into your worldview?
- abrichr 5y ago
  Apologies in advance for the formatting, copied and pasted from YouTube transcript: https://youtu.be/Xu1FMCxoEFc?t=5928 https://youtu.be/Xu1FMCxoEFc?t=5928 99:33 But one of the things that came up 99:35 and is a fundamental question that I had, 99:37 that I think probably many of you are asking, 99:38 is does the experience that one has on these compounds 99:43 make a difference for whether or not somebody gains relief 99:46 from depression, from these psilocybin journeys or not? 99:50 In other words, does it matter what they talk about? 99:52 Does it matter what they think about? 99:53 Does it matter if they have a good trip or a bad trip? 99:56 And I don't want to hold you in too much suspense, 99:58 I'll let Matthew provide the more thorough answer. 100:00 But what's really interesting 100:02 is there are some common themes to psilocybin administration 100:08 and experience that lead to relief from depressive symptoms, 100:11 but they are subjectively very varied, 100:17 meaning that whether or not people feel 100:20 they had a good experience or a bad experience, 100:22 whether or not people thought about their parents 100:24 or thought about the color of the ceiling, 100:27 doesn't seem to have too much of an impact 100:30 on whether or not they receive relief 100:32 during these studies in these clinical studies. 100:37 It seems like different people can have 100:38 lots of different experiences and still receive benefit. 100:42 And that points to something deeper. 100:45 It points to the fact that these drugs, 100:48 which is really what they are, 100:49 are rewiring neural circuitry in a common way 100:53 despite a diversity of experience while on the drug. 100:57 And that itself is really interesting. 100:58 And it takes us back to a place that we've been before 101:01 in this discussion, which is layer five of the cortex. 101:04 This area that ketamine seems to impact as well 101:06 by generating rhythms of the, 101:08 I mentioned one to three Hertz activity 101:10 in layer five of certain areas of the cortex.
nverno 5y ago
Anecdotally, I've also noticed the most profound lasting positive effects on my mood after the worst trip I ever had- an absolute nightmare for no good reason (same people I'd tripped with before, familiar places, etc), but the following couple weeks I was on cloud 9. There are so many confounding factors, but at the time I was completely convinced the trip was responsible for the following positive period. The experience was sort of like an extremely intense workout, or emerging from a sweat lodge- it was painful, but led to a sort of rebirth. It may be simply, when you're already in good spirits prior to tripping, the results are just less noticeable afterward.
- sharadov 5y ago
  Did you see lasting changes? Or they were mostly temporary.
  - nverno 5y ago
    I've never made it enough of a habit to feel like I've had long-lasting changes, but I do have one friend with serious life-long depression, who has approached psilocybin use methodically, as a means of treatment along with periodic ketamine dosing, and it seems to be working quite well. However, I'm not sure about long-lasting effects after quitting these drugs entirely. There are so many life-factors influencing 'depression'. Everything is just strange when tripping, from the things you see to human interactions to life in general- whether the strangeness is beautiful or terrifying depends on the trip, but afterward it can have a lasting (at least long after the drug has worn off) child-like appreciation for things that might've been mundane, boring, or tedious. How long this break from monotony, or revitalization lasts, is hard to say.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
  ~70% of people who have "bad trips" don't regret the experience. The terminology is actually being phased out, especially in the medical community. "Good" and "bad" might be appropriate descriptors if you're just trying to get high and have fun, but they're not quite right if you're trying to work on yourself and your mental health. Some trips are easy, some trips are difficult, and just like in real life, it's often the difficult journeys which cause us to learn and grow most.
cwkoss 5y ago
I wonder if the mental health benefits require consciousness. Would be interesting to study if tranquilized or anesthetized subjects get the same effects.

The Huberman Lab podcast episode on depression touches on this. According to Dr. Huberman the quality of the trip is not important, the chemical changes the brain function regardless.

dorchadas 5y ago

But is it solely the chemical changes in the brain that "fix" the depression, or does it also have to do with integrating what you've seen and experienced into your worldview?

abrichr 5y ago
Apologies in advance for the formatting, copied and pasted from YouTube transcript: https://youtu.be/Xu1FMCxoEFc?t=5928 https://youtu.be/Xu1FMCxoEFc?t=5928 99:33 But one of the things that came up 99:35 and is a fundamental question that I had, 99:37 that I think probably many of you are asking, 99:38 is does the experience that one has on these compounds 99:43 make a difference for whether or not somebody gains relief 99:46 from depression, from these psilocybin journeys or not? 99:50 In other words, does it matter what they talk about? 99:52 Does it matter what they think about? 99:53 Does it matter if they have a good trip or a bad trip? 99:56 And I don't want to hold you in too much suspense, 99:58 I'll let Matthew provide the more thorough answer. 100:00 But what's really interesting 100:02 is there are some common themes to psilocybin administration 100:08 and experience that lead to relief from depressive symptoms, 100:11 but they are subjectively very varied, 100:17 meaning that whether or not people feel 100:20 they had a good experience or a bad experience, 100:22 whether or not people thought about their parents 100:24 or thought about the color of the ceiling, 100:27 doesn't seem to have too much of an impact 100:30 on whether or not they receive relief 100:32 during these studies in these clinical studies. 100:37 It seems like different people can have 100:38 lots of different experiences and still receive benefit. 100:42 And that points to something deeper. 100:45 It points to the fact that these drugs, 100:48 which is really what they are, 100:49 are rewiring neural circuitry in a common way 100:53 despite a diversity of experience while on the drug. 100:57 And that itself is really interesting. 100:58 And it takes us back to a place that we've been before 101:01 in this discussion, which is layer five of the cortex. 101:04 This area that ketamine seems to impact as well 101:06 by generating rhythms of the, 101:08 I mentioned one to three Hertz activity 101:10 in layer five of certain areas of the cortex.

nverno 5y ago

Anecdotally, I've also noticed the most profound lasting positive effects on my mood after the worst trip I ever had- an absolute nightmare for no good reason (same people I'd tripped with before, familiar places, etc), but the following couple weeks I was on cloud 9. There are so many confounding factors, but at the time I was completely convinced the trip was responsible for the following positive period. The experience was sort of like an extremely intense workout, or emerging from a sweat lodge- it was painful, but led to a sort of rebirth. It may be simply, when you're already in good spirits prior to tripping, the results are just less noticeable afterward.

sharadov 5y ago
Did you see lasting changes? Or they were mostly temporary.
- nverno 5y ago
  I've never made it enough of a habit to feel like I've had long-lasting changes, but I do have one friend with serious life-long depression, who has approached psilocybin use methodically, as a means of treatment along with periodic ketamine dosing, and it seems to be working quite well. However, I'm not sure about long-lasting effects after quitting these drugs entirely. There are so many life-factors influencing 'depression'. Everything is just strange when tripping, from the things you see to human interactions to life in general- whether the strangeness is beautiful or terrifying depends on the trip, but afterward it can have a lasting (at least long after the drug has worn off) child-like appreciation for things that might've been mundane, boring, or tedious. How long this break from monotony, or revitalization lasts, is hard to say.
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
~70% of people who have "bad trips" don't regret the experience. The terminology is actually being phased out, especially in the medical community. "Good" and "bad" might be appropriate descriptors if you're just trying to get high and have fun, but they're not quite right if you're trying to work on yourself and your mental health. Some trips are easy, some trips are difficult, and just like in real life, it's often the difficult journeys which cause us to learn and grow most.

cwkoss 5y ago

I wonder if the mental health benefits require consciousness. Would be interesting to study if tranquilized or anesthetized subjects get the same effects.