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If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its ci
by rectang 5y ago
If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a state about to be obliterated by a human-made disaster?
- SoapSeller 5y agoThey always have the option of building a platform(Sealand[0] like) and claim the territory. Probably there still few advantages to be recognized as nation. Being Tax shelter and selling domains(.tv is somewhat popular) comes to mind. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand
- bin_bash 5y agoSealand isn't a great example considering nobody recognizes it as a country. Tuvalu might get away with it since they would've been a "real" country in the past.
- AutumnCurtain 5y agoI assume he just meant a platform resembling that although it should be apparent that would come nowhere close to the size, beauty, or natural wealth of the current islands.
- javert 5y agoMore important than official recognition by other countries, is simply being allowed to exist. Incredibly, Sealand has achieved that.
- dane-pgp 5y agoThat brings to mind some interesting ideas. One of the "business models" for Sealand was to be a "data haven", i.e. offer online hosting of data in a jurisdiction which didn't allow searches or seizures of data or servers. Could Tuvalu provide a similar service, possibly from within the territory of a nation which grants them a legally autonomous region? Similarly, I wonder what would happen if Tuvalu decided its laws should not recognise copyright as a concept any more. The government could run an official "legal" file-sharing site and other countries would have to decide whether to prevent their own citizens from accessing it. I imagine these other countries would lose a lot of sympathy for the people of Tuvalu if such a site were created, though.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoThese nations will need to make arrangements to migrate to welcoming host nations, that will allow for local governance similar to how tribal lands work in the US. Wealth could be preserved by seeking restitution from nations according to lifetime emissions (which has led to sea level rise), and creating a trust to manage and distribute the returns from those funds invested to citizens where ever they are. Once submerged, it’s unlikely the land has any value beyond tourism for diving yachties transiting the pacific.
- lastofthemojito 5y agoIt reminds me of the concept of government in exile, similar to how there's been a Tibetan "government" in India since China took Tibet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_in_exile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_in_exile
- bin_bash 5y agocall me cynical, but would any country be willing to give up its land like that? Tribal lands only exist to give back a small fraction of stolen lands back. Would any country give land to another country just for goodwill?
- ocschwar 5y agoThe most likely resolution would be a land purchase in (for example) Fiji along with a grant of autonomous power on that land, in exchange for a fishing lease in Tuvaluan waters. Fiji gets a share of Tuvaluan fishing grounds, and the Tuvaluans get a place to live AND some protection for their territorial waters by a nation that is still landed.
- selimthegrim 5y agoWhy would Fiji treat them any differently than the Indians?
- ocschwar 5y ago
- lcpriest 5y agoNew Zealand has previously given citizenship to island nation citizens, it is likely that that will continue if things worsen.
- AutumnCurtain 5y agoBetween wealthy doomsday preppers and Pacific climate refugees, New Zealand is dealing with the immigrant trends of 2050 today!
- ocschwar 5y agoWell, a nation with a thriving Polynesian culture is probably the best place to collect atoll refugees.
- AutumnCurtain 5y agoAnd a liberal democracy that prizes multiculturalism, I absolutely agree they are a good fit. You get all that human capital and goodwill too, it's good business.
- FredPret 5y agoProbably going to help make their damn rugby team even stronger too!
- BitwiseFool 5y agoPerhaps, perhaps not. In Hawaii there is actually a lot of tension between the Kanaka Maoli (Native Hawaiians), the Marshallese, and Micronesians. I am not keen as to exactly why this is, but I think it underscores the importance of providing more resources for both the Pacific Islanders already living receiving limited assistance, and the new arrivals. I think the government shouldn't just assume they'll get along because of shared cultural heritage.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ocschwar 5y agoTuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them. They export coconuts and fishing licenses for hard currency, and there is no way they could muster the money and hardware to defend their patch of the ocean. So if the same institutions that decided to enable the foundation of the republic of Tuvalu decide to protect Tuvualuan territorial waters as a way to give the Tuvaluan diaspora some source of currency with which to start over where they go, then that is what will be,.
- vehbisarikaya 5y agoThey also export .tv domains (e.g., twitch.tv)
- ocschwar 5y agoAnd before that they financed a significant part of their government's budget selling postage stamps to kids like me. Recognized sovereignty can be a source of money in all sorts of ways.
- number6 5y agoSo they can exist forth on the metaverse.
- hasmanean 5y agoThat is a very grim assessment. But yeah they might become the worlds first virtualized state for stateless people.
- number6 5y agoI can already see the Press Release: Meta preserves the Culture and unique Landmarks of Tuvalu on the Metaverse. The State of Tuvalu lives on through the efforts of Meta and is the first fully virtual State.
- 5y ago
- pkphilip 5y agoThey can become a nation where citizens live on boats (if they are ok with that) or on dwellings that exist over water.. or they can increase the height of their island by bringing soil from elsewhere.. or they can make their own islands.
- ocschwar 5y agoThe engineering challenge involved in making that a safe way to live go beyond anything the Tuvaluans can hope to finance.
- b112 5y agoI wonder, because even it they are submerged, it could be 1 foot submerged.... So, trade could bring wood, materials, solar, desalinaton. If done slowly, over years, as parts submerge, it wouldn't be a massive outlay at once. I agree.. not cheap, but individual citizens have to buy building materials currently, their new houses would just be on stilts.
- oblio 5y agoThey just need to persuade the latest crazy, pardon me, eccentric billionaire.
- cblconfederate 5y agoI dont think the UN can recognize that as a state with territory, territorial waters, EEZ etc.
- pkphilip 5y agoWhy not? many countries make their own islands, adjust their coast lands and do other sorts of geoengineering. Building tall platforms isn't that controversial either.
- cblconfederate 5y agoThe UNCLOS allows them to make artificial islands in their EEZ, but to have an EEZ they must be a country first.
- Svip 5y agoThe Sovereign Military Order of Malta has had observer status at the UN since the early 1990s despite having no territory.[0] They issue their own passports and enters intro treaties like a regular state. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Ma...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- OneTimePetes 5y agoThey even had a tremendous airforce..
- deanCommie 5y agoSo does the Red Cross and the International Olympic Committee [1]. And if you scroll up you see so do many "banks". UN Observer status is most often used to discuss the status of states like Palestines but it has less of an implication of being a sovereign "state" than people think. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_observers#Other_entities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembl...
- L3viathan 5y agoThe order of Malta is on a different level though: It's a sovereign entity in international law[1], the IOC, banks, etc. aren't The only somewhat comparable thing afaik is the Holy See, but that at least has sovereignty over some land (the vatican). [1] although this status is sometimes questioned
- jasomill 5y agoJust to be clear to passers-by, all banks in this list are intergovernmental development organizations, not commercial banks.
- shagmin 5y agoI'm not really optimistic for Tuvalu, I'm guessing their culture may out last any legal standing. But I've learned in history the idea of the modern state with its political borders and such is kind of a novelty. For some people, it's just pointless lines drawn by Europeans from long ago (e.g. Pashtuns on the Afghan/Pakistan border) and others it's something like an inconvenience (e.g. rich people who live anywhere they want, corporations putting their profit far from their headquarters, etc.,) - wish stories like Tuvalu would further the discussion on the role of the nation-state in the modern world, because it looks like we're probably going to have a lot of refugee crises in the decades to come. In a way the world is getting smaller all the time and we even have more people going to space than ever, its own thing beyond geopolitical borders.