4 ms·

This may be pork from Intel, but even TSMC is getting subsidies to build fabs in the US. The US see strategic interest in chip fabs.

consumer451 5y ago
> This may be pork from Intel, but even TSMC is getting subsidies to build fabs in the US. The US see strategic interest in chip fabs. We sit around and argue about this while TSMC was founded by the Taiwanese government. The Taiwanese gov't is likely still a giant shareholder. I am curious as to what HN readers think is different about the two situations. As in, why can't it work in the USA? Fun TSMC fact: Morris Chang was never given any options as part of his original pay package. He used his own money to buy shares.
- arrosenberg 5y ago
  > I am curious as to what HN readers think is different about the two situations. As in, why can't it work in the USA? Unfortunately we are still stuck with the legacy of Reaganism, which was essentially the undoing of the New Deal notion that the government could do good for the country and the average person.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >which was essentially the undoing of the New Deal notion that the government could do good for the country and the average person. The new deal involved governments giving billions in grants to multibillion dollar multinationals?
    - arrosenberg 5y ago
      The New Deal governments have a legacy of getting a ton of bang for it's buck - Rural Electrification, the Hoover Dam, the Interstate Highway System, and the Apollo program just to name a few. The entire point of Reaganism was to destroy that legacy by making government ineffective, wasteful, and disdainful of the very people it is meant to serve.
      - _delirium 5y ago
        One thing that's interesting about the New Deal era is that the federal government did a bunch of things directly, instead of trying to incentivize private companies to do things through fiscal policy. A very FDR take on the current issue might be to create a new Department of Semiconductor Fabrication and start building federally owned fabs. I assume Intel would not be as excited about that plan. (I also don't expect it to happen.)
        Arrath 5y ago
        If it were to happen, hoo boy. Think the Intel ME is bad? Wait until the NSA has folks involved in the clean-sheet design and build out of chips.
      - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        It was the other way around. During the time of the New Deal, the military industrial complex was yet to exist. There was no OSHA. They hired anybody off the street to build the Hoover Dam, a bunch of them died, but the dam got built. This was followed almost immediately by WWII, which was more of the same. But then all the people making a living from this didn't want the money train to stop when the war ended so they hired lobbyists and the military industrial complex was born. Which made government ineffective, wasteful, and disdainful of the very people it was meant to serve. Enter Reagan. To get back to the old thing you would have to first dissolve the military industrial complex. And then somehow prevent it from reforming. The government already spends a higher percentage of GDP than they did during the 1930s, and real GDP per capita is also significantly higher so this is more even in real dollars per capita than it was during the New Deal. The problem is that parasites are sucking it all out and it doesn't go where you want it to go because of the corruption.
        N1H1L 5y ago
        Pretty wrong. Dupont was the military-industrial complex, way before New Deal. The military industrial complex is not some new thing. Alfred Nobel did not become rich selling candies to children.
- markus_zhang 5y ago
  I think it can work to some extents. However the end result depends on a lot of other things.
- sct202 5y ago
  A lot of government funded companies are started as knockoffs of successful business models when that industry becomes trendy. It's really hard to start companies and it's even harder when there's already someone that does it well with a head start. Idk if this applies in Intel's case, because they already exist and do certain things very well. It would just seem kind of silly if the end result of subsidizing Intel's expansions was that Intel could outcompete other American companies (AMD & Nvidia) because of it.
- stefan_ 5y ago
  Well, is the government getting a stake in Intel with this bill? Don't think that is in there. Oddly convenient.

consumer451 5y ago

> This may be pork from Intel, but even TSMC is getting subsidies to build fabs in the US. The US see strategic interest in chip fabs. We sit around and argue about this while TSMC was founded by the Taiwanese government. The Taiwanese gov't is likely still a giant shareholder. I am curious as to what HN readers think is different about the two situations. As in, why can't it work in the USA? Fun TSMC fact: Morris Chang was never given any options as part of his original pay package. He used his own money to buy shares.

arrosenberg 5y ago
> I am curious as to what HN readers think is different about the two situations. As in, why can't it work in the USA? Unfortunately we are still stuck with the legacy of Reaganism, which was essentially the undoing of the New Deal notion that the government could do good for the country and the average person.
- gruez 5y ago
  >which was essentially the undoing of the New Deal notion that the government could do good for the country and the average person. The new deal involved governments giving billions in grants to multibillion dollar multinationals?
  - arrosenberg 5y ago
    The New Deal governments have a legacy of getting a ton of bang for it's buck - Rural Electrification, the Hoover Dam, the Interstate Highway System, and the Apollo program just to name a few. The entire point of Reaganism was to destroy that legacy by making government ineffective, wasteful, and disdainful of the very people it is meant to serve.
    - _delirium 5y ago
      One thing that's interesting about the New Deal era is that the federal government did a bunch of things directly, instead of trying to incentivize private companies to do things through fiscal policy. A very FDR take on the current issue might be to create a new Department of Semiconductor Fabrication and start building federally owned fabs. I assume Intel would not be as excited about that plan. (I also don't expect it to happen.)
      - Arrath 5y ago
        If it were to happen, hoo boy. Think the Intel ME is bad? Wait until the NSA has folks involved in the clean-sheet design and build out of chips.
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      It was the other way around. During the time of the New Deal, the military industrial complex was yet to exist. There was no OSHA. They hired anybody off the street to build the Hoover Dam, a bunch of them died, but the dam got built. This was followed almost immediately by WWII, which was more of the same. But then all the people making a living from this didn't want the money train to stop when the war ended so they hired lobbyists and the military industrial complex was born. Which made government ineffective, wasteful, and disdainful of the very people it was meant to serve. Enter Reagan. To get back to the old thing you would have to first dissolve the military industrial complex. And then somehow prevent it from reforming. The government already spends a higher percentage of GDP than they did during the 1930s, and real GDP per capita is also significantly higher so this is more even in real dollars per capita than it was during the New Deal. The problem is that parasites are sucking it all out and it doesn't go where you want it to go because of the corruption.
      - N1H1L 5y ago
        Pretty wrong. Dupont was the military-industrial complex, way before New Deal. The military industrial complex is not some new thing. Alfred Nobel did not become rich selling candies to children.
markus_zhang 5y ago
I think it can work to some extents. However the end result depends on a lot of other things.
sct202 5y ago
A lot of government funded companies are started as knockoffs of successful business models when that industry becomes trendy. It's really hard to start companies and it's even harder when there's already someone that does it well with a head start. Idk if this applies in Intel's case, because they already exist and do certain things very well. It would just seem kind of silly if the end result of subsidizing Intel's expansions was that Intel could outcompete other American companies (AMD & Nvidia) because of it.
stefan_ 5y ago
Well, is the government getting a stake in Intel with this bill? Don't think that is in there. Oddly convenient.