5 ms·

I think it’s different - there was an old post by an early FB employee who has no ability to visualize images after a head injury and has to adapt as a result f

I think it’s different - there was an old post by an early FB employee who has no ability to visualize images after a head injury and has to adapt as a result for that. Thinking of images is also different than thinking of words (since all of us speak the language). I’m not saying it’s impossible, but that I suspect its more likely a lack of introspection - I’d need to be persuaded empirically somehow and don’t know how to test it.

nicoburns 5y ago
> Thinking of images is also different than thinking of words (since all of us speak the language). No more of speak the language than see with our eyes. Personally while I do have some kind of inner voice, my thoughts tend much more heavily to the visual. And memories too. If I need to recall a phone number or spelling then I'll imagine it written.
- gonehome 5y ago
  Thanks - something for me to think about. These HN threads do have a history of changing my mind (or at least softening my position) on topics where the true answer can be harder to know.
wpietri 5y ago
My introspection is quite good on this; I've been doing meditation on and off for decades. Sorry, but I don't have an internal narrator. Instead, the meditative interruptions that come with words are generally imagined discussions with other people or things to write about. Like you, I had a hard time believing people were different in this. The whole idea of an internal narrator seemed absurd to me. Why would anybody need a narrator for themselves? They're right there! But enough people claim that this is their real life that I'm willing to believe it, however tedious and exhausting that sounds to me.
- gonehome 5y ago
  Imagined discussion is what I'm talking about. It's not narration like "I'm picking up the coffee mug now, I'm clicking the button now" - it's silent speech with oneself. Often it's trying to predict what will happen or thinking about things with language. It's not that every action must be stated by some narrator, but that a narrator exists to discuss things with oneself. Without language and semantic meaning tied to ideas, what does 'thinking' mean at all? My point is more that there are always thoughts (typically in the form of words, but sometimes images) flowing through your mind all of the time. Meditation and 'mindfulness' is focused on recognizing them as they happen and getting control of that kind of thing (at least enough to reduce thought loops, rumination, unwanted emotional response, etc.).
  - wpietri 5y ago
    For me there are significant periods without words or images. I also almost never "discuss things with oneself". I understand that people do that, but for many years I just thought it was metaphor occasionally made real in film and books. The sort of storytelling convention that is made fun of here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CahNAauFgys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CahNAauFgys I get that you have a hard time understanding thinking without words because that's your main experience. But please understand that it's different for other people. And not just people. Animals can be very thoughtful. Watch documentaries, for example, of animal cognition and problem-solving. From crows to chimps, an awful lot of thinking happens, just not in words.
    - gonehome 5y ago
      The animals example is a good one, thanks for the thoughtful response.

nicoburns 5y ago

> Thinking of images is also different than thinking of words (since all of us speak the language). No more of speak the language than see with our eyes. Personally while I do have some kind of inner voice, my thoughts tend much more heavily to the visual. And memories too. If I need to recall a phone number or spelling then I'll imagine it written.

gonehome 5y ago
Thanks - something for me to think about. These HN threads do have a history of changing my mind (or at least softening my position) on topics where the true answer can be harder to know.

wpietri 5y ago

My introspection is quite good on this; I've been doing meditation on and off for decades. Sorry, but I don't have an internal narrator. Instead, the meditative interruptions that come with words are generally imagined discussions with other people or things to write about. Like you, I had a hard time believing people were different in this. The whole idea of an internal narrator seemed absurd to me. Why would anybody need a narrator for themselves? They're right there! But enough people claim that this is their real life that I'm willing to believe it, however tedious and exhausting that sounds to me.

gonehome 5y ago
Imagined discussion is what I'm talking about. It's not narration like "I'm picking up the coffee mug now, I'm clicking the button now" - it's silent speech with oneself. Often it's trying to predict what will happen or thinking about things with language. It's not that every action must be stated by some narrator, but that a narrator exists to discuss things with oneself. Without language and semantic meaning tied to ideas, what does 'thinking' mean at all? My point is more that there are always thoughts (typically in the form of words, but sometimes images) flowing through your mind all of the time. Meditation and 'mindfulness' is focused on recognizing them as they happen and getting control of that kind of thing (at least enough to reduce thought loops, rumination, unwanted emotional response, etc.).
- wpietri 5y ago
  For me there are significant periods without words or images. I also almost never "discuss things with oneself". I understand that people do that, but for many years I just thought it was metaphor occasionally made real in film and books. The sort of storytelling convention that is made fun of here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CahNAauFgys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CahNAauFgys I get that you have a hard time understanding thinking without words because that's your main experience. But please understand that it's different for other people. And not just people. Animals can be very thoughtful. Watch documentaries, for example, of animal cognition and problem-solving. From crows to chimps, an awful lot of thinking happens, just not in words.
  - gonehome 5y ago
    The animals example is a good one, thanks for the thoughtful response.