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> There’s a fundamentally new ideology taking shape This is where I disagree. It's the same old (Lockean) liberalism adapting to an increasingly decentralized

> There’s a fundamentally new ideology taking shape This is where I disagree. It's the same old (Lockean) liberalism adapting to an increasingly decentralized and connected (i.e. diverse) setting.

rayiner 5y ago
That’s an amusing take given that proponents of the new ideology would say “Locke was a dead white guy and investor in the slave trade, who cares what he said.” But I agree the new ideology is Lockean in the sense of presupposing minds are tabula rasa. I disagree that the prevailing American liberalism is especially Lockean, though there is a strong thread of that. It’s a bit of a conceit, similar to people saying “the founding fathers were deists” by pointing to Jefferson. For example, the Constitutional structure of government takes a very Christian view of humans being inherently sinful and needing checks and balances, rather than a Lockean view of perfectible man.
- pphysch 5y ago
  I use Lockean to make clear that I'm referring to liberalism in the philosophical sense rather the "red vs blue" political sense.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    I see, but I’m not sure I agree. I don’t see how, e.g., believing that experts should decide how to socialize children, or that the non-discrimination principle overrides even self determination, is an extension of liberalism. Fundamentally, the new ideology isn’t pluralist, which seems like a big difference. I’m inclined to agree with those who see it as a neo-Puritanism: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/revenge-of-the-yankees https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/revenge-of-...
    - pphysch 5y ago
      > believing that experts should decide how to socialize children That isn't what American liberals (in the philosophical sense) believe. Liberals believe that their personal beliefs are basically, universally correct--they are good American liberals, after all--and other people should be enlightened in the same way. How they get enlightened--reeducation or bombs or bibles or sanctions or spontaneously--is a minor detail.

> There’s a fundamentally new ideology taking shape This is where I disagree. It's the same old (Lockean) liberalism adapting to an increasingly decentralized and connected (i.e. diverse) setting.

rayiner 5y ago

That’s an amusing take given that proponents of the new ideology would say “Locke was a dead white guy and investor in the slave trade, who cares what he said.” But I agree the new ideology is Lockean in the sense of presupposing minds are tabula rasa. I disagree that the prevailing American liberalism is especially Lockean, though there is a strong thread of that. It’s a bit of a conceit, similar to people saying “the founding fathers were deists” by pointing to Jefferson. For example, the Constitutional structure of government takes a very Christian view of humans being inherently sinful and needing checks and balances, rather than a Lockean view of perfectible man.

pphysch 5y ago
I use Lockean to make clear that I'm referring to liberalism in the philosophical sense rather the "red vs blue" political sense.
- rayiner 5y ago
  I see, but I’m not sure I agree. I don’t see how, e.g., believing that experts should decide how to socialize children, or that the non-discrimination principle overrides even self determination, is an extension of liberalism. Fundamentally, the new ideology isn’t pluralist, which seems like a big difference. I’m inclined to agree with those who see it as a neo-Puritanism: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/revenge-of-the-yankees https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/revenge-of-...
  - pphysch 5y ago
    > believing that experts should decide how to socialize children That isn't what American liberals (in the philosophical sense) believe. Liberals believe that their personal beliefs are basically, universally correct--they are good American liberals, after all--and other people should be enlightened in the same way. How they get enlightened--reeducation or bombs or bibles or sanctions or spontaneously--is a minor detail.