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Then you intentionally lied. Apple does not bargain of interests of their users. This is proven by a single fact that you are forbidden to run Signal in China,

Then you intentionally lied. Apple does not bargain of interests of their users. This is proven by a single fact that you are forbidden to run Signal in China, or Navalny voting app in Russia.

quesera 5y ago
Explain please how you would go about flagrantly violating the laws of China or Russia without going to jail, or worse. Should Apple leave China? Would the net effect be positive or negative for Chinese people? Ambiguous at best. Of course it would have an enormous impact on Apple's financials and manufacturing abilities, with negative consequences worldwide. Serenity for the things I can not change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  > Should Apple leave China? No. The solution is very simple. Apple should simply allow users to install apps at will, sidestepping the AppStore. China tells to remove Signal from the AppStore? Whatever, Apple complies and users download it directly from Signal, sidestepping the great firewall via VPN or something. This problem in its entirety was created by Apple's malicious desire to control what users can run on their devices. Consequently, this gives bad actors big leverage over Apple, which is forced to serve not only its greedy needs, but also the needs of those bad actors.
  - quesera 5y ago
    And this is why Signal on Android is so popular in China? Problem solved?
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      No. This does not solve the problem of iPhone users. Btw, how would you feel if you wouldn't be allowed to run any app you want on your MacBook? Apple rolls out new macOS 16, says, " For your own safety, AppStore is now mandatory".
      - quesera 5y ago
        Signal was available on iOS in China until the Chinese government banned Signal. Apple maintains a curated App Store, which puts them in gatekeeper mode for Chinese laws, in China. I respect, appreciate, and value a curated App Store. The combination of circumstances above does conflict with my preference for the freedom of Chinese citizens. But my disagreement is with the Chinese government, and their lack of accountability to the Chinese people. It's ethnocentric of me to assume that the Chinese people want Western-style freedoms -- and some evidence of unknown quality says they generally do not -- but I still believe that there are intrinsic rights of all humans which should not be oppressed by their governments. I also believe that allowing alternative App Stores, or sideloading, on iOS would be destructive. By being the only game in town, Apple is able to enforce standards that are onerous sometimes (as an iOS developer) and unfairly applied sometimes (because that's a universal truth of the world), but on net add great value to iOS. You obviously disagree, and that's cool. I'm very glad you are able to choose a product that suits your needs, and I am able to choose a product that suits mine. Re: macOS App Store. It's different because I treat my phone as an appliance that should not surprise me nor require maintenance. It should always work. All apps should perform a function, and they should be available without extra hassles. However, I don't hate the idea of additional OS protections on macOS. I like SIP and the ChromeOS RO boot partition model. I would like application segmentation. I use jails on FreeBSD and zones on Solaris. This is easy for me to appreciate because I have other machines that are tuned to suit other sets of needs. I recognize that people with a single device (phone) or two devices (phone + laptop) who have needs that would conflict with OS restrictions will struggle more than I.
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        > I also believe that allowing alternative App Stores, or sideloading, on iOS would be destructive. Your long argument boils down to this. I believe that the effect will be the opposite. Increased competition always benefits the customers. AppStore experience on the developer and on the user side is quite lacking, so if Apple would be forced to compete, everybody (but Apple) will benefit. And it will also remove the leverage bad state actors like Russia or China have over the company. You see, iPhone and iPad are not 'appliances', they are supercomputers, and users who want to use them as such must have this option.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    Why do you think that China wouldn't just down these other app stores?
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      There are ways to bypass any 'downing' China can do to a service. Unless they start using missiles to bomb datacenters in US and EU, of course.

Then you intentionally lied. Apple does not bargain of interests of their users. This is proven by a single fact that you are forbidden to run Signal in China, or Navalny voting app in Russia.

quesera 5y ago

Explain please how you would go about flagrantly violating the laws of China or Russia without going to jail, or worse. Should Apple leave China? Would the net effect be positive or negative for Chinese people? Ambiguous at best. Of course it would have an enormous impact on Apple's financials and manufacturing abilities, with negative consequences worldwide. Serenity for the things I can not change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
> Should Apple leave China? No. The solution is very simple. Apple should simply allow users to install apps at will, sidestepping the AppStore. China tells to remove Signal from the AppStore? Whatever, Apple complies and users download it directly from Signal, sidestepping the great firewall via VPN or something. This problem in its entirety was created by Apple's malicious desire to control what users can run on their devices. Consequently, this gives bad actors big leverage over Apple, which is forced to serve not only its greedy needs, but also the needs of those bad actors.
- quesera 5y ago
  And this is why Signal on Android is so popular in China? Problem solved?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    No. This does not solve the problem of iPhone users. Btw, how would you feel if you wouldn't be allowed to run any app you want on your MacBook? Apple rolls out new macOS 16, says, " For your own safety, AppStore is now mandatory".
    - quesera 5y ago
      Signal was available on iOS in China until the Chinese government banned Signal. Apple maintains a curated App Store, which puts them in gatekeeper mode for Chinese laws, in China. I respect, appreciate, and value a curated App Store. The combination of circumstances above does conflict with my preference for the freedom of Chinese citizens. But my disagreement is with the Chinese government, and their lack of accountability to the Chinese people. It's ethnocentric of me to assume that the Chinese people want Western-style freedoms -- and some evidence of unknown quality says they generally do not -- but I still believe that there are intrinsic rights of all humans which should not be oppressed by their governments. I also believe that allowing alternative App Stores, or sideloading, on iOS would be destructive. By being the only game in town, Apple is able to enforce standards that are onerous sometimes (as an iOS developer) and unfairly applied sometimes (because that's a universal truth of the world), but on net add great value to iOS. You obviously disagree, and that's cool. I'm very glad you are able to choose a product that suits your needs, and I am able to choose a product that suits mine. Re: macOS App Store. It's different because I treat my phone as an appliance that should not surprise me nor require maintenance. It should always work. All apps should perform a function, and they should be available without extra hassles. However, I don't hate the idea of additional OS protections on macOS. I like SIP and the ChromeOS RO boot partition model. I would like application segmentation. I use jails on FreeBSD and zones on Solaris. This is easy for me to appreciate because I have other machines that are tuned to suit other sets of needs. I recognize that people with a single device (phone) or two devices (phone + laptop) who have needs that would conflict with OS restrictions will struggle more than I.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        > I also believe that allowing alternative App Stores, or sideloading, on iOS would be destructive. Your long argument boils down to this. I believe that the effect will be the opposite. Increased competition always benefits the customers. AppStore experience on the developer and on the user side is quite lacking, so if Apple would be forced to compete, everybody (but Apple) will benefit. And it will also remove the leverage bad state actors like Russia or China have over the company. You see, iPhone and iPad are not 'appliances', they are supercomputers, and users who want to use them as such must have this option.
- ericmay 5y ago
  Why do you think that China wouldn't just down these other app stores?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    There are ways to bypass any 'downing' China can do to a service. Unless they start using missiles to bomb datacenters in US and EU, of course.