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I haven't read any classics from anarchism but the notion I got from Noam Chomsky is that anarchism isn't about a complete lack of power structures, it's about

I haven't read any classics from anarchism but the notion I got from Noam Chomsky is that anarchism isn't about a complete lack of power structures, it's about demanding that there are adequate reasons for them to exist. So government wouldn't necessarily be gone under an anarchist system, it would only disappear if the collective decides that it is unnecessary.

JasonCannon 5y ago
It also is about decentralizing power. There would be no one executive being who decides something is or is not legal. But the collective would be able to vote directly on how things should operate. And that includes the ability to punish / exile / whatever bad actors.
- philipov 5y ago
  So.... you're saying Anarchists really just want to have Athenian Democracy? Direct democracy might work well for a city state where even poor citizens are independent land owners, but I'm not convinced it would work for a large nation where there are enough powerful bad actors that they can use marketing and patronage to get control of the political process.
  - JasonCannon 5y ago
    Not athenian democracy, because that had hierarchy inherent in it. But yes, we believe in Direct Democracy. >Direct democracy might work well for a city state where even poor citizens are independent land owners, One of the principal beliefs of Anarchists is that property is theft[0]. So no one would be an independent land owner. Everyone would be equally involved and have equal rights as we would all be members of the Commune/Council/Community/Collective/Union/whatever term the community wants to use to describe their collective. I prefer either Commune or Union personally. >But I'm not convinced it would work for a large nation where there are enough powerful bad actors that they can use marketing and patronage to get control of the political process. A lot of people have this idea that Anarchism would break down at larger levels. And that's kind of true, but we have organizational techniques to avoid this. One such technique is the idea that you have your commune and it's you and your neighbors or coworkers (you can be in multiple communes) and it will be a small commune where everyone knows each other. This is the group that handles most of your day to day governance and issues. These communes will federate with other communes, and create a commune that are represented by a member of each member commune. These representatives would represent the will of their source commune in the larger federation, and can be instantly recallable if they start making power plays or decisions that the source commune doesn't agree with. There could be multiple levels of these federations, each keeping the group in session small (less than 80 people) but no one really being in a position of power or permanently having their job. Each commune that's part of the federation can choose how they choose their representative. Some may want the most charismatic person. Some may choose at random. Some may consider it a duty of the members of that commune and so it switches every few weeks. These representatives don't get special perks or privileges for being chosen. They just represent their federation and their commune in order to expedite the process. Also, Anarchists do not believe in the concept of the City State, or the Nation. Borders are violent[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_is_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_is_theft! [1] https://crimethinc.com/posters/borders-the-global-caste-system https://crimethinc.com/posters/borders-the-global-caste-syst...
    - goatlover 5y ago
      > So no one would be an independent land owner. So nobody owns their home or vehicle? It's all shared property? > Also, Anarchists do not believe in the concept of the City State, or the Nation. Borders are violent[1]. What stops some communities from being violent? Various groups of pirates, marauders and bandits existed in the past. The Vikings were well known for it.
      - JasonCannon 5y ago
        You would own the home you live in or the car you drive. Those would be your personal property. But you cannot own multiple homes that you rent out. Or a fleet of cars that you run a ride share company with. Thats private property and (private)property is theft. No one wants your toothbrush, but they do want the toothbrush factory >what about violent communities Anarchists are not liberals. We believe in armed Resistance and fighting back. Google the CNT-FIA, the EZLN, the YPG, and The Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine
    - prox 5y ago
      That is nice, until you get an enemy which is much more organized and wipes all the small unions out, or plays them against eachother.
      - JasonCannon 5y ago
        Like I said to the sibling comment, look up the CNT-FAI, the EZLN, the YPG, and the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine. There is nothing wrong with having the federation create a militia for the purpose of self defense and furthering the revolution
        prox 5y ago
        I will, though I must say it also sounds a lot like the ideas in Common Sense by Thomas Payne. I am also interested in the ideas by Nicholas Taleb on fractalistic societies. You familiar with his work?
ALittleLight 5y ago
Ah yes, it reminds of the form of government I created - "goodocracy". We're against bad things but for good things. It doesn't make much sense to say things like "we demand there are adaquate reasons for the existence of power structures" because there's nobody on the opposite side asking for unreasonable power structures. Everyone wants good/reasonable things and doesn't want the unreasonable. Problem is, people disagree about what is what. A group definition is meaningless if it doesn't specify a group. As is, every major political ideology would be anarchist by this definition.
- atq2119 5y ago
  This strongly depends on your definition of "adequate", "reasonable", etc. When Noam Chomsky wrote this, I'm fairly certain his definition of "adequate" included things like "the power structure does not exist to serve itself or the people in it, but to serve the larger society around it". And there are definitely people asking for power structures whose purpose is to be self-serving and/or enrich those in it. Obviously they don't come right out and say that, but come on...
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Sounds like Noam Chomsky argued that anarchy meant ideal democracy. In that case we are working towards an anarchy everywhere in the west, some corrupt elements hinders those efforts but still we try to get there and there is no reason to try to change course other than fight corruption.
Jensson 5y ago
> anarchism isn't about a complete lack of power structures, it's about demanding that there are adequate reasons for them to exist. Power structures will appear no matter what you do, the only question is if the system you have is powerful enough to fight power structures. If a guy who promises free virgin slaves to every soldier who fights for him can take over your anarchist state then it is too weak to exist and will disappear almost immediately. So someone with at least that much power must be present. It can take the form of a king, a president, a general, a dictator, or even a council of many people, but the power has to be held by someone or someone else will take that power and become that person themselves.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
brookse32 5y ago
It is much easier to parse this by unpacking the word anarchism itself through its root terms 'an' (without) 'arch' (ruler). So anarchism means "without rulers" (not without governance or without coordination). Anarchists strive to organize small group, workplace, community and broader geographic decision making as horizontally as possible so that each individual has equal input - with small groups and workplaces making decisions by Consensus - and with larger groups, companies, or broader regions using Consensus in Spokescouncils.(Spokescouncil Examples: A Spokescouncil was used to successfully coordinate the 1999 anti WTO protests in Seattle, and The Brazilian Landless Workers Movement (MST) uses a spokescouncil structure.) (NOTE: Consensus works much better when it is 'Modified Consensus' in which, as a last resort, decisions that must be made soon but are contentious and aren't reaching consensus, can be made by a supermajority vote of 2/3rds or higher.) Here are some resources to examine these basics: CONSENSUS: - Consensus: http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocuments/Consensus.html http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocuments/Consensus.html - Consensus Decision Making: http://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/consensus http://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/consensus - Consensus in Large Groups: http://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/conslarge.pdf http://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/conslarge.pdf - Affinity Groups & Spokescouncils: http://www.reclaimingquarterly.org/web/resources/DA-Process-Handout-GF.pdf http://www.reclaimingquarterly.org/web/resources/DA-Process-... EXAMPLES OF ANARCHISM IN PRACTICE: - The Zapatistas (EZLN) Chiapas, Mexico: https://nacla.org/news/2019/01/18/spark-hope-ongoing-lessons-zapatista-revolution-25-years https://nacla.org/news/2019/01/18/spark-hope-ongoing-lessons... - The Brazilian Landless Workers Movement (MST): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landless_Workers%27_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landless_Workers%27_Movement - The Rojava (Syria): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava - The Mondragon Corporation (Spain): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation - The National Confederation of Labour (CNT) - Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederaci%C3%B3n_Nacional_del_Trabajo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederaci%C3%B3n_Nacional_de... - The Evergreen Cooperatives (Cleveland, Ohio): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_Cooperatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_Cooperatives - The US Federation of Worker Cooperatives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Federation_of_Worker_Cooperatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Federation_of_Wo... Also, for a vast body of discussions on, and descriptions of, modern anarchism, search the phrase ‘Renewing The Anarchist Tradition’ at: http://radio4all.net http://radio4all.net

JasonCannon 5y ago

It also is about decentralizing power. There would be no one executive being who decides something is or is not legal. But the collective would be able to vote directly on how things should operate. And that includes the ability to punish / exile / whatever bad actors.

philipov 5y ago
So.... you're saying Anarchists really just want to have Athenian Democracy? Direct democracy might work well for a city state where even poor citizens are independent land owners, but I'm not convinced it would work for a large nation where there are enough powerful bad actors that they can use marketing and patronage to get control of the political process.
- JasonCannon 5y ago
  Not athenian democracy, because that had hierarchy inherent in it. But yes, we believe in Direct Democracy. >Direct democracy might work well for a city state where even poor citizens are independent land owners, One of the principal beliefs of Anarchists is that property is theft[0]. So no one would be an independent land owner. Everyone would be equally involved and have equal rights as we would all be members of the Commune/Council/Community/Collective/Union/whatever term the community wants to use to describe their collective. I prefer either Commune or Union personally. >But I'm not convinced it would work for a large nation where there are enough powerful bad actors that they can use marketing and patronage to get control of the political process. A lot of people have this idea that Anarchism would break down at larger levels. And that's kind of true, but we have organizational techniques to avoid this. One such technique is the idea that you have your commune and it's you and your neighbors or coworkers (you can be in multiple communes) and it will be a small commune where everyone knows each other. This is the group that handles most of your day to day governance and issues. These communes will federate with other communes, and create a commune that are represented by a member of each member commune. These representatives would represent the will of their source commune in the larger federation, and can be instantly recallable if they start making power plays or decisions that the source commune doesn't agree with. There could be multiple levels of these federations, each keeping the group in session small (less than 80 people) but no one really being in a position of power or permanently having their job. Each commune that's part of the federation can choose how they choose their representative. Some may want the most charismatic person. Some may choose at random. Some may consider it a duty of the members of that commune and so it switches every few weeks. These representatives don't get special perks or privileges for being chosen. They just represent their federation and their commune in order to expedite the process. Also, Anarchists do not believe in the concept of the City State, or the Nation. Borders are violent[1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_is_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_is_theft! [1] https://crimethinc.com/posters/borders-the-global-caste-system https://crimethinc.com/posters/borders-the-global-caste-syst...
  - goatlover 5y ago
    > So no one would be an independent land owner. So nobody owns their home or vehicle? It's all shared property? > Also, Anarchists do not believe in the concept of the City State, or the Nation. Borders are violent[1]. What stops some communities from being violent? Various groups of pirates, marauders and bandits existed in the past. The Vikings were well known for it.
    - JasonCannon 5y ago
      You would own the home you live in or the car you drive. Those would be your personal property. But you cannot own multiple homes that you rent out. Or a fleet of cars that you run a ride share company with. Thats private property and (private)property is theft. No one wants your toothbrush, but they do want the toothbrush factory >what about violent communities Anarchists are not liberals. We believe in armed Resistance and fighting back. Google the CNT-FIA, the EZLN, the YPG, and The Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine
  - prox 5y ago
    That is nice, until you get an enemy which is much more organized and wipes all the small unions out, or plays them against eachother.
    - JasonCannon 5y ago
      Like I said to the sibling comment, look up the CNT-FAI, the EZLN, the YPG, and the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine. There is nothing wrong with having the federation create a militia for the purpose of self defense and furthering the revolution
      - prox 5y ago
        I will, though I must say it also sounds a lot like the ideas in Common Sense by Thomas Payne. I am also interested in the ideas by Nicholas Taleb on fractalistic societies. You familiar with his work?

ALittleLight 5y ago

Ah yes, it reminds of the form of government I created - "goodocracy". We're against bad things but for good things. It doesn't make much sense to say things like "we demand there are adaquate reasons for the existence of power structures" because there's nobody on the opposite side asking for unreasonable power structures. Everyone wants good/reasonable things and doesn't want the unreasonable. Problem is, people disagree about what is what. A group definition is meaningless if it doesn't specify a group. As is, every major political ideology would be anarchist by this definition.

atq2119 5y ago
This strongly depends on your definition of "adequate", "reasonable", etc. When Noam Chomsky wrote this, I'm fairly certain his definition of "adequate" included things like "the power structure does not exist to serve itself or the people in it, but to serve the larger society around it". And there are definitely people asking for power structures whose purpose is to be self-serving and/or enrich those in it. Obviously they don't come right out and say that, but come on...
- Jensson 5y ago
  Sounds like Noam Chomsky argued that anarchy meant ideal democracy. In that case we are working towards an anarchy everywhere in the west, some corrupt elements hinders those efforts but still we try to get there and there is no reason to try to change course other than fight corruption.

Jensson 5y ago

> anarchism isn't about a complete lack of power structures, it's about demanding that there are adequate reasons for them to exist. Power structures will appear no matter what you do, the only question is if the system you have is powerful enough to fight power structures. If a guy who promises free virgin slaves to every soldier who fights for him can take over your anarchist state then it is too weak to exist and will disappear almost immediately. So someone with at least that much power must be present. It can take the form of a king, a president, a general, a dictator, or even a council of many people, but the power has to be held by someone or someone else will take that power and become that person themselves.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

brookse32 5y ago

It is much easier to parse this by unpacking the word anarchism itself through its root terms 'an' (without) 'arch' (ruler). So anarchism means "without rulers" (not without governance or without coordination). Anarchists strive to organize small group, workplace, community and broader geographic decision making as horizontally as possible so that each individual has equal input - with small groups and workplaces making decisions by Consensus - and with larger groups, companies, or broader regions using Consensus in Spokescouncils.(Spokescouncil Examples: A Spokescouncil was used to successfully coordinate the 1999 anti WTO protests in Seattle, and The Brazilian Landless Workers Movement (MST) uses a spokescouncil structure.) (NOTE: Consensus works much better when it is 'Modified Consensus' in which, as a last resort, decisions that must be made soon but are contentious and aren't reaching consensus, can be made by a supermajority vote of 2/3rds or higher.) Here are some resources to examine these basics: CONSENSUS: - Consensus: http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocuments/Consensus.html http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocuments/Consensus.html - Consensus Decision Making: http://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/consensus http://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/consensus - Consensus in Large Groups: http://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/conslarge.pdf http://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/conslarge.pdf - Affinity Groups & Spokescouncils: http://www.reclaimingquarterly.org/web/resources/DA-Process-Handout-GF.pdf http://www.reclaimingquarterly.org/web/resources/DA-Process-... EXAMPLES OF ANARCHISM IN PRACTICE: - The Zapatistas (EZLN) Chiapas, Mexico: https://nacla.org/news/2019/01/18/spark-hope-ongoing-lessons-zapatista-revolution-25-years https://nacla.org/news/2019/01/18/spark-hope-ongoing-lessons... - The Brazilian Landless Workers Movement (MST): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landless_Workers%27_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landless_Workers%27_Movement - The Rojava (Syria): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rojava - The Mondragon Corporation (Spain): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation - The National Confederation of Labour (CNT) - Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederaci%C3%B3n_Nacional_del_Trabajo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederaci%C3%B3n_Nacional_de... - The Evergreen Cooperatives (Cleveland, Ohio): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_Cooperatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_Cooperatives - The US Federation of Worker Cooperatives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Federation_of_Worker_Cooperatives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Federation_of_Wo... Also, for a vast body of discussions on, and descriptions of, modern anarchism, search the phrase ‘Renewing The Anarchist Tradition’ at: http://radio4all.net http://radio4all.net