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Yes but "you can charge it while you sleep" is a pretty popular selling point of electric cars. You're arguing that we should purposely make electric cars less

Yes but "you can charge it while you sleep" is a pretty popular selling point of electric cars. You're arguing that we should purposely make electric cars less attractive. People talk about "demand management" as if it's free. Not much power available, just shut down some factories. But if you're running your factories only half the time, you need to build twice as many factories to make the same stuff. You're making renewables look artificially cheap by externalizing costs to their customers.

WalterBright 5y ago
> Yes but "you can charge it while you sleep" is a pretty popular selling point of electric cars. You're arguing that we should purposely make electric cars less attractive. Instead, "you can charge it while you work". Not many people drive more than an hour a day - that's 23 hours where it sits. I see lots of cars parked in residential streets during the day. Paid parking lots catering to commuters can also offer charging services. > just shut down some factories That's your strawman. I didn't propose that.
- DennisP 5y ago
  Any factory wants to run full-speed 24/7. How are you going to manage their demand without reducing their production? Same principle applies to most things. If electricity stops being readily available all the time, then you're introducing a new constraint that people have to optimize for. If that means they change their behavior, then they're doing something more expensive than whatever they were doing before, when they optimized without that constraint. That extra cost generally isn't figured into the optimistic estimates of how cheap renewables are, but it's still a cost that society pays. Building lots of charging stations at employer parking lots is also a new cost, that doesn't get counted against renewables.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Have you ever noticed that pump gas prices vary every day? That's demand shaping. It works. > Building lots of charging stations at employer parking lots is also a new cost, that doesn't get counted against renewables. The cost needs to be compared with building grid storage batteries.
    - DennisP 5y ago
      It also needs to be included in comparisons with the cost of nuclear.
  - fulafel 5y ago
    > Any factory wants to run full-speed 24/7 Many factories don't run 24/7. And yet more factories don't run their most energy intensive processes continuously even when they factory is "running".

WalterBright 5y ago

> Yes but "you can charge it while you sleep" is a pretty popular selling point of electric cars. You're arguing that we should purposely make electric cars less attractive. Instead, "you can charge it while you work". Not many people drive more than an hour a day - that's 23 hours where it sits. I see lots of cars parked in residential streets during the day. Paid parking lots catering to commuters can also offer charging services. > just shut down some factories That's your strawman. I didn't propose that.

DennisP 5y ago
Any factory wants to run full-speed 24/7. How are you going to manage their demand without reducing their production? Same principle applies to most things. If electricity stops being readily available all the time, then you're introducing a new constraint that people have to optimize for. If that means they change their behavior, then they're doing something more expensive than whatever they were doing before, when they optimized without that constraint. That extra cost generally isn't figured into the optimistic estimates of how cheap renewables are, but it's still a cost that society pays. Building lots of charging stations at employer parking lots is also a new cost, that doesn't get counted against renewables.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Have you ever noticed that pump gas prices vary every day? That's demand shaping. It works. > Building lots of charging stations at employer parking lots is also a new cost, that doesn't get counted against renewables. The cost needs to be compared with building grid storage batteries.
  - DennisP 5y ago
    It also needs to be included in comparisons with the cost of nuclear.
- fulafel 5y ago
  > Any factory wants to run full-speed 24/7 Many factories don't run 24/7. And yet more factories don't run their most energy intensive processes continuously even when they factory is "running".