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There's only two viable paths to a zero emissions society. One is nuclear and the other is hydrogen. We have to pick one or the other (or both) as all other ide

by Hypx_ 5y ago

There's only two viable paths to a zero emissions society. One is nuclear and the other is hydrogen. We have to pick one or the other (or both) as all other ideas have fallen far short of the goal.

rich_sasha 5y ago
Well, I don't know. Are batteries + renewables a prior impossible? I can't see why, especially if we're talking about utility-scale batteries, which could be heavy and bulky. My point is we don't have them at a competitive price, and yet the renewables people insist we definitely well. We might, we might not.
- vonadz 5y ago
  One of the big issues with nuclear plants is that they aren't very flexible in terms of their energy production. Their production is super steady, so what happens when there's a huge peak in electricity demand at 6 pm when everyone gets home? Fossil fuels are great for their relatively short start up time. Maybe renewables + batteries could somehow fill this niche?
  - smileysteve 5y ago
    Power plants have giant flywheels and batteries (vanadium redox) that can help peak demand. Hydroelectric can also be managed for this.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    IIUC modern reactors load-follow just fine, like in France.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      For really fast fluctuations gas fired turbines and pumped storage are preferred.
  - melling 5y ago
    So what you’re saying is it would be best for base load and only good for about 75% of our electricity? Imagine if we had said that 40 years ago. We’d be talking about getting to net zero by 2075 instead of 2050. Now we’re still waiting for renewables
  - whatisthiseven 5y ago
    "...when there's a huge peak in electricity demand at 6 pm when everyone gets home?" The entire electrical generation industry knows all this. They know when clouds are coming and when wind will stop and model it all. Pricing information is sent ahead of time and plants know if they will be required to spin up or spin down well in advance. Especially something as simple as "everyone gets home at 6pm at a regular time every weekday". It is easy for plants with slow ramp times, such as nuclear and coal, to plan for that.
- Hypx_ 5y ago
  People who looked at that strategy have realized that you need way more energy storage than originally thought. Especially in places that need winter heating. The only way we can get there at a reasonable cost is via hydrogen energy storage. The other ideas are orders of magnitude too expensive. For the UK, the solution might look something like this: https://hydrogeneast.uk/study-explores-uks-geological-hydrogen-storage-capacity/ https://hydrogeneast.uk/study-explores-uks-geological-hydrog...

by Hypx_ 5y ago

There's only two viable paths to a zero emissions society. One is nuclear and the other is hydrogen. We have to pick one or the other (or both) as all other ideas have fallen far short of the goal.

rich_sasha 5y ago

Well, I don't know. Are batteries + renewables a prior impossible? I can't see why, especially if we're talking about utility-scale batteries, which could be heavy and bulky. My point is we don't have them at a competitive price, and yet the renewables people insist we definitely well. We might, we might not.

vonadz 5y ago
One of the big issues with nuclear plants is that they aren't very flexible in terms of their energy production. Their production is super steady, so what happens when there's a huge peak in electricity demand at 6 pm when everyone gets home? Fossil fuels are great for their relatively short start up time. Maybe renewables + batteries could somehow fill this niche?
- smileysteve 5y ago
  Power plants have giant flywheels and batteries (vanadium redox) that can help peak demand. Hydroelectric can also be managed for this.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  IIUC modern reactors load-follow just fine, like in France.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    For really fast fluctuations gas fired turbines and pumped storage are preferred.
- melling 5y ago
  So what you’re saying is it would be best for base load and only good for about 75% of our electricity? Imagine if we had said that 40 years ago. We’d be talking about getting to net zero by 2075 instead of 2050. Now we’re still waiting for renewables
- whatisthiseven 5y ago
  "...when there's a huge peak in electricity demand at 6 pm when everyone gets home?" The entire electrical generation industry knows all this. They know when clouds are coming and when wind will stop and model it all. Pricing information is sent ahead of time and plants know if they will be required to spin up or spin down well in advance. Especially something as simple as "everyone gets home at 6pm at a regular time every weekday". It is easy for plants with slow ramp times, such as nuclear and coal, to plan for that.
Hypx_ 5y ago
People who looked at that strategy have realized that you need way more energy storage than originally thought. Especially in places that need winter heating. The only way we can get there at a reasonable cost is via hydrogen energy storage. The other ideas are orders of magnitude too expensive. For the UK, the solution might look something like this: https://hydrogeneast.uk/study-explores-uks-geological-hydrogen-storage-capacity/ https://hydrogeneast.uk/study-explores-uks-geological-hydrog...