5 ms·

The delivery staff definitely aren't/weren't actual employees. They all have some kind of business entity set up that they use to bill Wolt

by Kkoala 5y ago

larschdk 5y ago
It's still an open question whether this is legal in some countries, e.g. Denmark. It's being argued heavily that Wolt shouldn't be allowed to avoid pension, payed vacation, and payed sick leave, which are required by law for all workers. The competing Just Eat have just signed a union agreement with couriers which includes full benefits, without increasing prices for customers.
- nebula8804 5y ago
  >pension, payed vacation, and payed sick leave, which are required by law for all workers Wait do you mean that someone like a janitor has all these benefits?
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    In Europe, yes. All of these are mandatory for all workers, including janitors and other staff.
  - da_chicken 5y ago
    Do you think the world doesn't need janitors? If they are doing necessary labor, by what basis should they be excluded from social benefits?
  - IanCal 5y ago
    Can't claim for Denmark, but in the UK absolutely. We distinguish between a few different types of employment but janitors would typically be employees and entitled to these things.
  - mihaic 5y ago
    I'm honestly not sure if you're sarcastic. These are all basic human rights in most developed countries, and even in many non-developed ones. At least in theory, regulations are designed primary for the people and not for better business at all costs.
    - nebula8804 5y ago
      I'm sorry I worded it wrong. You are right, a janitor is absolutely deserving of all these benefits. Its just that in the US we are so far away from that norm it is a shock to hear that even a position that is typically farmed out to the lowest bidders here in the states is completely covered with no strings. I just wanted to confirm if all jobs are covered as it was leading to additional questions in my mind such as how do smaller companies manage to pay for all these benefits for entry level positions? Is it covered by the state and the company just pays into a general tax?
  - matsemann 5y ago
    Of course?
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    If they are regular employee of any company yes. They have all of them.
  - Dobbs 5y ago
    Why wouldn't a janitor be deserving of these things? They work hard, their job is essential for the running of other businesses, and most of all they are humans too.
    - nebula8804 5y ago
      A janitor is absolutely deserving of all this. My wording was poor, I should have said something more along the lines of entry level worker. This is so far from the norm in the US that I was wondering how smaller companies manage to cover the costs of these benefits. I guess they pay a general tax and the government picks up the cost?
      - Dobbs 5y ago
        On one hand if you can't afford to pay your employees and provide them basic benefits like paid time off, sick leave etc, then you don't deserve to be in business. It of course depends on the country how things are implemented, but here there is a central insurance fund that all employees pay into. Then when an employee needs to take time off for parental leave the company applies to the fund and the fund covers the expenses. The company can then choose to pay out more than the fund does, or not. As is normal for benefits. This means though that every employee has a right to at least 16 weeks of leave at somewhere between 70-100% of pay. Details change the specifics. Healthcare has little to nothing to do with companies. Technically you can sometimes get a discount by applying to a group scheme through your work, but mostly it is done independently. It costs about €170 a month a person. Depending upon how much you earn you can get a subsidy from the government for up to 100% of your monthly expense. That €170 covers most things you could need healthcare wise, although somethings aren't covered unless you buy addons, for example eyeglasses. Everyone is required to have health insurance.
        nebula8804 5y ago
        >On one hand if you can't afford to pay your employees and provide them basic benefits like paid time off, sick leave etc, then you don't deserve to be in business. I guess this is why lots of startups use 'contractor' services because things like cleaning are not their core competency but what you describe could apply to many early stage startups. In that stage many companies are in a vulnerable position and death is likely. What you describe would only further reduce the chances of the company surviving. If all we have are entrenched businesses that can afford these additional expenses we end up in stagnation over time. Maybe thats one part of the reason why we don't see many big shot companies coming out of Europe today? I don't know. On the other hand, €170 a month seems very reasonable. From a quick search it seems like in the US the average monthly healthcare cost covered by an employer is around $1,100 or around $13,200 per year. This is in additional to the portion that employees may have to pay. This varies depending on employer and plan. How would pensions work? That is actually what I really wanted to know about. Pensions would be an additional added cost and it seems like only the big established companies can afford to offer it.
moeffju 5y ago
Depends on the market i guess, but in Finland and Germany they were employees, freelance isn't even an option.
- Sharlin 5y ago
  Def not in Finland. The question whether the freelance status is legal or whether the couriers should be classified as employees is still open. There was a preliminary decision that they are employees but the court process is still ongoing.
  - jarcane 5y ago
    Correct. The labor board has issued its opinion that they should be considered employees but it hasn't yet been enforced by the courts. Instead, all Wolt couriers in Finland have been "independent contractors" and had to have their own business name or do other paperwork, that because of how Finnish law works for small business owners, means they get cut off from any public health insurance, unemployment insurance, etc. Courier work doesn't pay nearly enough to afford private insurance here, and since they aren't unionized (because after all they're not "workers" but business owners), they can't join a union unemployment benefit either. There has been an ongoing attempt at unionization but it has been difficult to push through; the apps are fighting against it tooth and nail because they already run at a loss and underpay the drivers as it is. Wolt deliberately obfuscates how much couriers are making an hour in the driver app, runs propaganda articles on the customer app, and both it and Foodora have continued to fight against employee or union recognition in the courts. It's become apparent for a while they are running scared, and running out of money. Quality of service has massively degraded over the last two years, as they've stripped support staff to the bone, manipulated delivery fees and ranges to nickle-and-dime customers, massive order delays and fudged estimates, started manipulating algorithms to push certain restaurants and promotions, rushed couriers causing constant order failures, which then mean more cost in customer refunds. It's god bad enough I stopped using it completely, because I just could no longer trust that I'd even get what I ordered, or that it wouldn't be left a sodden mess leaking all over my entryway. It's an app that was probably going to implode if they didn't get a buyout and soon, so this move is incredibly predictable. My only surprise is just how greedy they went with the bogus valuation here.

The delivery staff definitely aren't/weren't actual employees. They all have some kind of business entity set up that they use to bill Wolt

by Kkoala 5y ago

The delivery staff definitely aren't/weren't actual employees. They all have some kind of business entity set up that they use to bill Wolt

larschdk 5y ago

It's still an open question whether this is legal in some countries, e.g. Denmark. It's being argued heavily that Wolt shouldn't be allowed to avoid pension, payed vacation, and payed sick leave, which are required by law for all workers. The competing Just Eat have just signed a union agreement with couriers which includes full benefits, without increasing prices for customers.

nebula8804 5y ago
>pension, payed vacation, and payed sick leave, which are required by law for all workers Wait do you mean that someone like a janitor has all these benefits?
- mschuster91 5y ago
  In Europe, yes. All of these are mandatory for all workers, including janitors and other staff.
- da_chicken 5y ago
  Do you think the world doesn't need janitors? If they are doing necessary labor, by what basis should they be excluded from social benefits?
- IanCal 5y ago
  Can't claim for Denmark, but in the UK absolutely. We distinguish between a few different types of employment but janitors would typically be employees and entitled to these things.
- mihaic 5y ago
  I'm honestly not sure if you're sarcastic. These are all basic human rights in most developed countries, and even in many non-developed ones. At least in theory, regulations are designed primary for the people and not for better business at all costs.
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    I'm sorry I worded it wrong. You are right, a janitor is absolutely deserving of all these benefits. Its just that in the US we are so far away from that norm it is a shock to hear that even a position that is typically farmed out to the lowest bidders here in the states is completely covered with no strings. I just wanted to confirm if all jobs are covered as it was leading to additional questions in my mind such as how do smaller companies manage to pay for all these benefits for entry level positions? Is it covered by the state and the company just pays into a general tax?
- matsemann 5y ago
  Of course?
- Ekaros 5y ago
  If they are regular employee of any company yes. They have all of them.
- Dobbs 5y ago
  Why wouldn't a janitor be deserving of these things? They work hard, their job is essential for the running of other businesses, and most of all they are humans too.
  - nebula8804 5y ago
    A janitor is absolutely deserving of all this. My wording was poor, I should have said something more along the lines of entry level worker. This is so far from the norm in the US that I was wondering how smaller companies manage to cover the costs of these benefits. I guess they pay a general tax and the government picks up the cost?
    - Dobbs 5y ago
      On one hand if you can't afford to pay your employees and provide them basic benefits like paid time off, sick leave etc, then you don't deserve to be in business. It of course depends on the country how things are implemented, but here there is a central insurance fund that all employees pay into. Then when an employee needs to take time off for parental leave the company applies to the fund and the fund covers the expenses. The company can then choose to pay out more than the fund does, or not. As is normal for benefits. This means though that every employee has a right to at least 16 weeks of leave at somewhere between 70-100% of pay. Details change the specifics. Healthcare has little to nothing to do with companies. Technically you can sometimes get a discount by applying to a group scheme through your work, but mostly it is done independently. It costs about €170 a month a person. Depending upon how much you earn you can get a subsidy from the government for up to 100% of your monthly expense. That €170 covers most things you could need healthcare wise, although somethings aren't covered unless you buy addons, for example eyeglasses. Everyone is required to have health insurance.
      - nebula8804 5y ago
        >On one hand if you can't afford to pay your employees and provide them basic benefits like paid time off, sick leave etc, then you don't deserve to be in business. I guess this is why lots of startups use 'contractor' services because things like cleaning are not their core competency but what you describe could apply to many early stage startups. In that stage many companies are in a vulnerable position and death is likely. What you describe would only further reduce the chances of the company surviving. If all we have are entrenched businesses that can afford these additional expenses we end up in stagnation over time. Maybe thats one part of the reason why we don't see many big shot companies coming out of Europe today? I don't know. On the other hand, €170 a month seems very reasonable. From a quick search it seems like in the US the average monthly healthcare cost covered by an employer is around $1,100 or around $13,200 per year. This is in additional to the portion that employees may have to pay. This varies depending on employer and plan. How would pensions work? That is actually what I really wanted to know about. Pensions would be an additional added cost and it seems like only the big established companies can afford to offer it.

moeffju 5y ago

Depends on the market i guess, but in Finland and Germany they were employees, freelance isn't even an option.

Sharlin 5y ago
Def not in Finland. The question whether the freelance status is legal or whether the couriers should be classified as employees is still open. There was a preliminary decision that they are employees but the court process is still ongoing.
- jarcane 5y ago
  Correct. The labor board has issued its opinion that they should be considered employees but it hasn't yet been enforced by the courts. Instead, all Wolt couriers in Finland have been "independent contractors" and had to have their own business name or do other paperwork, that because of how Finnish law works for small business owners, means they get cut off from any public health insurance, unemployment insurance, etc. Courier work doesn't pay nearly enough to afford private insurance here, and since they aren't unionized (because after all they're not "workers" but business owners), they can't join a union unemployment benefit either. There has been an ongoing attempt at unionization but it has been difficult to push through; the apps are fighting against it tooth and nail because they already run at a loss and underpay the drivers as it is. Wolt deliberately obfuscates how much couriers are making an hour in the driver app, runs propaganda articles on the customer app, and both it and Foodora have continued to fight against employee or union recognition in the courts. It's become apparent for a while they are running scared, and running out of money. Quality of service has massively degraded over the last two years, as they've stripped support staff to the bone, manipulated delivery fees and ranges to nickle-and-dime customers, massive order delays and fudged estimates, started manipulating algorithms to push certain restaurants and promotions, rushed couriers causing constant order failures, which then mean more cost in customer refunds. It's god bad enough I stopped using it completely, because I just could no longer trust that I'd even get what I ordered, or that it wouldn't be left a sodden mess leaking all over my entryway. It's an app that was probably going to implode if they didn't get a buyout and soon, so this move is incredibly predictable. My only surprise is just how greedy they went with the bogus valuation here.