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Wonder how someone could get this ruling applied to Google Play... In other news, I spent some time this month implementing monthly billing subscriptions. Str

Wonder how someone could get this ruling applied to Google Play... In other news, I spent some time this month implementing monthly billing subscriptions. Stripe was easy and I could rapidly test almost every scenario (cancellations, deferments, non payment,el etc). Apple and Google? Good luck, you basically have to test in production to figure out all the corner cases for your users. As a solo dev, being able to choose my payment processor would let me focus on delivering real features and value instead of app store toil.

jsnell 5y ago
They have already done that in South Korea, in response to a new law, but in a way that I'd bet you're not happy with: https://developers-kr.googleblog.com/2021/11/enabling-alternative-billing-in-korea-en.html https://developers-kr.googleblog.com/2021/11/enabling-altern... It seems likely that Apple will apply a similar strategy.
- candiddevmike 5y ago
  Seems like they still require Google Play billing as an option, so I wouldn't see any benefit here as I'd have to support all of the processors still. Though if they're going to do that, at least let the devs show the prices to the user (e.g. I can charge ~12-27% less using Stripe). People can then "vote with their wallets" on which method is more convenient.
  - jsnell 5y ago
    That's the thing: it would not be 12-27% less. Using another payment provider only chops off 4% points from Google's cut, the remaining 11-26% is considered a "service fee" unrelated to payments processing, and still has to be paid. And it's what Apple will do as well.
    - candiddevmike 5y ago
      Ah, I missed that at the bottom. That's quite the cut to distribute my 9MB APK.
      - musicale 5y ago
        > Google Play’s service fee covers more than simply payment processing According to Google's blog post, the "service" fee helps to pay for the whole Android ecosystem, including core Android development, developer tools, the Google Play store, etc.. It makes sense they'd tax IAP since so many mobile games are "free to play" and otherwise Google would make much less money from Google Play (which is presumably its main revenue source for Android.) It's similar to the "platform licensor" business model of game consoles, except that there are multiple hardware vendors.
        blihp 5y ago
        Don't underestimate the value of having hundreds of millions of users using their apps and services for data collection/profiling purposes. Then there are the ads. And the constant nag screens/dialogs pushing their various paid services. I suspect they'd be doing just fine without the store revenue. It's not like they got into the mobile business to collect fees from running an app store. That's just a nice bonus for them that's also been quite profitable.
    - wiradikusuma 5y ago
      The wording in the announcement is not very straightforward. So meaning, if I use Stripe, I will pay Stripe fee and also (reduced) Google Play fee?
      - Joeri 5y ago
        Yes, google will charge a service fee for the use of their platform by taking a cut of every transaction, even ones not processed by them. If we get a lawsuit that says “you can’t take a cut of every transaction” they’ll just charge a percentage of total revenue and audit developers, or find some other way of getting their cut. It is highly unlikely a path through lawmakers or courts is going to bring down apple and google’s cut. They’re running a platform and they’ve determined a price to be on that platform. They just happened to get that price through IAP, but they have many alternatives.
        arlcode 5y ago
        Laws can mandate a very rigid pricing structure for some services in many countries. One example would be access to last mile internet cables and some insurances where profits are tightly regulated. Lawmakers and regulartors could explicitly tell them what to charge (e.g. "at most x€ per gigabyte downloaded from the app store, at most x€ per store listing,..., No additional charges are allowed") However, it's a very heavy handed measure and I'm not sure it will happen with mobile phone plattforms.
        Joeri 5y ago
        In my region last mile access for ADSL operators is enshrined in law, as well as how much the network owner can charge them for that last mile access, and in practice what they charge them is around 30%. I am pessimistic of a legal path to reducing the 30% take. You would have to get a court or lawmaker agree it is onerous, and I think reasonable people can disagree on whether that cut is indeed onerous.
- musicale 5y ago
  This sounds like what Apple would have written.
- summerlight 5y ago
  https://m.etnews.com/20211109000278 https://m.etnews.com/20211109000278 Apple explicitly refused to change their policy (with Tim Cook saying their board that Apple shouldn't lose out to the new law) and insisted that they're already complying the new law. Which is a blatant challenge to the government of course.
Forge36 5y ago
Does allowing side loading app stores avoid this?
detaro 5y ago
I thought Google allows to link to other payment systems already?
_august 5y ago
I use revenuecat, makes it a lot easier
grishka 5y ago
The big difference here is that Android doesn't mandate the use of the Play Store. You could as well serve an apk from your own website with no rules whatsoever. You could completely ignore the existence of Google if you so desire.
- m0zg 5y ago
  That's disingenuous - 99.99% of Anrdoid users have no idea what an "APK" is. Sideloading might as well not exist - nobody but a tiny subset of nerds would even notice.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    I think you're wrong here. A reasonable chunk of android users seem to have at least one sideloaded app. Usually thats something like a "free spotify without ads" or "hacked snapchat so you can save screenshots".
    - grishka 5y ago
      And it's also when iOS users find out that they can't install arbitrary apps on their devices, not without jailbreaking.
  - grishka 5y ago
    One might not know that's it's called an apk, but among non-tech people around me, it's a well-known fact that you can download Android apps through the browser and install them. Also: - The "Files by Google" app on my Pixel has the "apps" category, that opens a screen with 2 tabs, one of them is "app install files (APKs)" - The "my files" app on my Galaxy S9 has the "installation files" category that says "APK" on the icon So it's not like anyone is hiding the existence of apks from Android users.
  - post_break 5y ago
    Doesn't DJI force you to sideload? And for a time Fortnite did too so that's a huge chunk of people.
  - 5y ago
rezonant 5y ago
oh my god yes, IAP on Apple and GPlay are atrociously painful to implement.

jsnell 5y ago

They have already done that in South Korea, in response to a new law, but in a way that I'd bet you're not happy with: https://developers-kr.googleblog.com/2021/11/enabling-alternative-billing-in-korea-en.html https://developers-kr.googleblog.com/2021/11/enabling-altern... It seems likely that Apple will apply a similar strategy.

candiddevmike 5y ago
Seems like they still require Google Play billing as an option, so I wouldn't see any benefit here as I'd have to support all of the processors still. Though if they're going to do that, at least let the devs show the prices to the user (e.g. I can charge ~12-27% less using Stripe). People can then "vote with their wallets" on which method is more convenient.
- jsnell 5y ago
  That's the thing: it would not be 12-27% less. Using another payment provider only chops off 4% points from Google's cut, the remaining 11-26% is considered a "service fee" unrelated to payments processing, and still has to be paid. And it's what Apple will do as well.
  - candiddevmike 5y ago
    Ah, I missed that at the bottom. That's quite the cut to distribute my 9MB APK.
    - musicale 5y ago
      > Google Play’s service fee covers more than simply payment processing According to Google's blog post, the "service" fee helps to pay for the whole Android ecosystem, including core Android development, developer tools, the Google Play store, etc.. It makes sense they'd tax IAP since so many mobile games are "free to play" and otherwise Google would make much less money from Google Play (which is presumably its main revenue source for Android.) It's similar to the "platform licensor" business model of game consoles, except that there are multiple hardware vendors.
      - blihp 5y ago
        Don't underestimate the value of having hundreds of millions of users using their apps and services for data collection/profiling purposes. Then there are the ads. And the constant nag screens/dialogs pushing their various paid services. I suspect they'd be doing just fine without the store revenue. It's not like they got into the mobile business to collect fees from running an app store. That's just a nice bonus for them that's also been quite profitable.
  - wiradikusuma 5y ago
    The wording in the announcement is not very straightforward. So meaning, if I use Stripe, I will pay Stripe fee and also (reduced) Google Play fee?
    - Joeri 5y ago
      Yes, google will charge a service fee for the use of their platform by taking a cut of every transaction, even ones not processed by them. If we get a lawsuit that says “you can’t take a cut of every transaction” they’ll just charge a percentage of total revenue and audit developers, or find some other way of getting their cut. It is highly unlikely a path through lawmakers or courts is going to bring down apple and google’s cut. They’re running a platform and they’ve determined a price to be on that platform. They just happened to get that price through IAP, but they have many alternatives.
      - arlcode 5y ago
        Laws can mandate a very rigid pricing structure for some services in many countries. One example would be access to last mile internet cables and some insurances where profits are tightly regulated. Lawmakers and regulartors could explicitly tell them what to charge (e.g. "at most x€ per gigabyte downloaded from the app store, at most x€ per store listing,..., No additional charges are allowed") However, it's a very heavy handed measure and I'm not sure it will happen with mobile phone plattforms.
        Joeri 5y ago
        In my region last mile access for ADSL operators is enshrined in law, as well as how much the network owner can charge them for that last mile access, and in practice what they charge them is around 30%. I am pessimistic of a legal path to reducing the 30% take. You would have to get a court or lawmaker agree it is onerous, and I think reasonable people can disagree on whether that cut is indeed onerous.
musicale 5y ago
This sounds like what Apple would have written.
summerlight 5y ago
https://m.etnews.com/20211109000278 https://m.etnews.com/20211109000278 Apple explicitly refused to change their policy (with Tim Cook saying their board that Apple shouldn't lose out to the new law) and insisted that they're already complying the new law. Which is a blatant challenge to the government of course.

Forge36 5y ago

Does allowing side loading app stores avoid this?

detaro 5y ago

I thought Google allows to link to other payment systems already?

_august 5y ago

I use revenuecat, makes it a lot easier

grishka 5y ago

The big difference here is that Android doesn't mandate the use of the Play Store. You could as well serve an apk from your own website with no rules whatsoever. You could completely ignore the existence of Google if you so desire.

m0zg 5y ago
That's disingenuous - 99.99% of Anrdoid users have no idea what an "APK" is. Sideloading might as well not exist - nobody but a tiny subset of nerds would even notice.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  I think you're wrong here. A reasonable chunk of android users seem to have at least one sideloaded app. Usually thats something like a "free spotify without ads" or "hacked snapchat so you can save screenshots".
  - grishka 5y ago
    And it's also when iOS users find out that they can't install arbitrary apps on their devices, not without jailbreaking.
- grishka 5y ago
  One might not know that's it's called an apk, but among non-tech people around me, it's a well-known fact that you can download Android apps through the browser and install them. Also: - The "Files by Google" app on my Pixel has the "apps" category, that opens a screen with 2 tabs, one of them is "app install files (APKs)" - The "my files" app on my Galaxy S9 has the "installation files" category that says "APK" on the icon So it's not like anyone is hiding the existence of apks from Android users.
- post_break 5y ago
  Doesn't DJI force you to sideload? And for a time Fortnite did too so that's a huge chunk of people.
- 5y ago

rezonant 5y ago

oh my god yes, IAP on Apple and GPlay are atrociously painful to implement.