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i sympathize with the author. safari and browsers aside, there is something bigger going on. there is a massive disconnect between applications users and maker

i sympathize with the author. safari and browsers aside, there is something bigger going on. there is a massive disconnect between applications users and makers nowadays. i have started to think that they a) don't care b) have misaligned priorities c) have weird notions of "acceptable" errors. i have a long list of applications that break every time there is an update. even UX updates introduce bugs nowadays. i have started to dread updates and upgrades. we have lost all notion of stability.

Mikeb85 5y ago
Why should any developer care about supporting Safari? Chrome and Firefox support most (all?) of the current web standards. Every site I use works on both. I don't hear any concerns about Brave, Edge or Opera either. How is it that Safari is the only broken browser these days? As for 'acceptable' errors, I find software to be pretty reliable these days. I remember way more things being messed up back in the day...
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Erm. So it works on Blink and Gecko... And Blink, and Blink, and Blink, but not WebKit? That's a symptom of a worse problem IMO.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Simple: iPhones. If you aren't worried about iPhones then ignore safari all you like.
- taf2 5y ago
  Mobile safari… since it’s the only engine on iOS … that ends up being a good chunk of users depending on your user base probably many try to use your website on an iPhone … if blink engine was allowed by apple on iOS - safari would die tomorrow
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    And if enough developers simply ignored Safari then maybe it would force Apple to either simply adhere to web standards or allow competing browser engines... Catering to them signals that their shitty behaviour is condoned.
    - cirrus3 5y ago
      It is the Mobile Safari engine... "simply ignored Safari" = "simply ignore iPhone users".
      - Mikeb85 5y ago
        Apple's the one ignoring them by shipping them a broken browser.
        katbyte 5y ago
        users won't see it like that
        meepmorp 5y ago
        This is the kind of thing that only web devs care about. If someone can't use your web app on their phone, they're going to never try your app again, not demand changes to the browser.
        bengale 5y ago
        It's generally the first thing we check for when trialling new software. Does it work in Chrome/FF/Safari and on iOS/Android. If not then we won't continue the trial.
    - thesuperbigfrog 5y ago
      Hard for developers to ignore when the developers' manager is using an iPhone or iPad. Who will the developers' manager blame: Apple or the developers?
- colinclerk 5y ago
  Safari - for better or worse - is setting the standard for many privacy updates, especially around 3rd party cookies and tracking. Those updates broke a lot of websites - you might have noticed SSO failing, iframes failing, or websites confusing unmodified Safari users for adblock users. Firefox adopted the changes a bit later. By the time they made the switch, I think most had resolved their sites because of Safari. Last I read, Chrome is slated to implement similar for 2022. Not intended to be a defense of Safari, especially for OP's bug. But at least some breaking changes were deliberate and in the name of privacy enhancements.
- merrywhether 5y ago
  There are no web standards in the era of WHATWG. It’s just a living spec composed of whatever vendors build and convince other vendors to add to their own products. Chrome is constantly spitting out new proposals that are already half-baked-but-live in their browser and then people start using them and complain they aren’t yet in other browsers. Yet when Safari or Firefox add new features we don’t act like Chrome is slow? Chrome’s rapid pace is almost surely an effort by Google to overwhelm the competition so they can make more ad money through dark patterns via Chrome dominance.
FpUser 5y ago
"...i have a long list of applications that break every time there is an update..." Updates to Wordpress / WooCommerce and accompanying plugins can make one go suicidal.

Mikeb85 5y ago

Why should any developer care about supporting Safari? Chrome and Firefox support most (all?) of the current web standards. Every site I use works on both. I don't hear any concerns about Brave, Edge or Opera either. How is it that Safari is the only broken browser these days? As for 'acceptable' errors, I find software to be pretty reliable these days. I remember way more things being messed up back in the day...

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
Erm. So it works on Blink and Gecko... And Blink, and Blink, and Blink, but not WebKit? That's a symptom of a worse problem IMO.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Simple: iPhones. If you aren't worried about iPhones then ignore safari all you like.
taf2 5y ago
Mobile safari… since it’s the only engine on iOS … that ends up being a good chunk of users depending on your user base probably many try to use your website on an iPhone … if blink engine was allowed by apple on iOS - safari would die tomorrow
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  And if enough developers simply ignored Safari then maybe it would force Apple to either simply adhere to web standards or allow competing browser engines... Catering to them signals that their shitty behaviour is condoned.
  - cirrus3 5y ago
    It is the Mobile Safari engine... "simply ignored Safari" = "simply ignore iPhone users".
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      Apple's the one ignoring them by shipping them a broken browser.
      - katbyte 5y ago
        users won't see it like that
      - meepmorp 5y ago
        This is the kind of thing that only web devs care about. If someone can't use your web app on their phone, they're going to never try your app again, not demand changes to the browser.
        bengale 5y ago
        It's generally the first thing we check for when trialling new software. Does it work in Chrome/FF/Safari and on iOS/Android. If not then we won't continue the trial.
  - thesuperbigfrog 5y ago
    Hard for developers to ignore when the developers' manager is using an iPhone or iPad. Who will the developers' manager blame: Apple or the developers?
colinclerk 5y ago
Safari - for better or worse - is setting the standard for many privacy updates, especially around 3rd party cookies and tracking. Those updates broke a lot of websites - you might have noticed SSO failing, iframes failing, or websites confusing unmodified Safari users for adblock users. Firefox adopted the changes a bit later. By the time they made the switch, I think most had resolved their sites because of Safari. Last I read, Chrome is slated to implement similar for 2022. Not intended to be a defense of Safari, especially for OP's bug. But at least some breaking changes were deliberate and in the name of privacy enhancements.
merrywhether 5y ago
There are no web standards in the era of WHATWG. It’s just a living spec composed of whatever vendors build and convince other vendors to add to their own products. Chrome is constantly spitting out new proposals that are already half-baked-but-live in their browser and then people start using them and complain they aren’t yet in other browsers. Yet when Safari or Firefox add new features we don’t act like Chrome is slow? Chrome’s rapid pace is almost surely an effort by Google to overwhelm the competition so they can make more ad money through dark patterns via Chrome dominance.

FpUser 5y ago

"...i have a long list of applications that break every time there is an update..." Updates to Wordpress / WooCommerce and accompanying plugins can make one go suicidal.