4 ms·

Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management. Their tax structure isn't great either, there's

Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management. Their tax structure isn't great either, there's a reason zero billion dollar companies were founded in Europe (with the possible exception of Spotify). There's also the cultural pessimism and ambition being 'uncool' - there's a similar thing in Australia/New Zealand (at least I've heard from immigrant friends that moved from there). The 'tallest poppy gets chopped down' basically the opposite of the American idiom 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease'. Even outside of Europe places like Toronto don't operate with the right investment mindset to actually create wealth: https://alexdanco.com/2021/01/11/why-the-canadian-tech-scene-doesnt-work/ https://alexdanco.com/2021/01/11/why-the-canadian-tech-scene... American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is. Devon is basically making this point, but the title is confusing. It's not the US companies that will lose the monopoly on talent, it's the US geography. The US companies will increase their monopoly.

908B64B197 5y ago
> Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management. It's something that I observed as well. > American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is. Don't forget that companies who may have been hesitant to sponsor a visa for an unknown dev might be a lot more willing after having him work for a year or two remotely. And this remote employment also opens the possibility of different visas (L1 comes to mind). I actually think we might see a larger drain to the US in the medium term. And I'm all in for that, if Europe wants to pay to educate engineers then waste their talent not valuing them, send them here!
- marcyb5st 5y ago
  I'm from Italy but working in Switzerland for a FAANG company. My theory about the management-heavy way to do things in Europe is the following: in Europe is hard to fire someone unless there is a clear and willingly negligence from his/her part. Engineers' output is somewhat easier to measure than "fluffy" (pardon my lack of better words) tasks performed by management and hence it's hard to prove a manager is doing nothing. Therefore, people tend to gravitate to these positions because they almost certainly guarantee job safety. In my personal experience this happens disproportionately much in countries where worker unions have more sway (like France, Italy, and Germany). Also in my opinion it's not a coincidence that such countries create companies that are bureaucratic behemoths in which there are several different committees to take every small decision. That's how management justify its existence. This is the main reason that pushed me to go to Switzerland to work for an American company. I feel this is the sweet spot when considering worker rights, salary/purchasing power, interesting work without too much bureaucracy, quality of life, and work-life balance.
  - BlargMcLarg 5y ago
    I'm unsure about this given I see the same attitude with loads of developers who carry a senior title, have been in the company for many years but barely outperform a junior with a few years of experience. My more cynical take is management and management-adjacent roles are easier to climb to and more abundant, pay better than the equivalent technical-only title and since managers largely decide what is going on, they'll obviously provide job security for themselves in whatever obscene way possible. At the same time culture views a manager as something noteworthy and of a higher rank already, which loops back and reinforces itself through payment, work and lifestyle, which then loops back to the way culture views it. The same can't be set for most developers who aren't at least partially dabbling into self-employment, entrepreneurship or management themselves, which then further reinforces the manager > developer mindset.

908B64B197 5y ago

> Europe undervalues their engineers - and it seems like it's some sort of cultural thing that favors management. It's something that I observed as well. > American optimism and ambition, really valuing engineers, generous equity and culture are a big part of this. Companies outside of America have been losing talent because they've been fucking this up, I expect things to get worse for them as geography is even less of an issue for working for American companies than it already is. Don't forget that companies who may have been hesitant to sponsor a visa for an unknown dev might be a lot more willing after having him work for a year or two remotely. And this remote employment also opens the possibility of different visas (L1 comes to mind). I actually think we might see a larger drain to the US in the medium term. And I'm all in for that, if Europe wants to pay to educate engineers then waste their talent not valuing them, send them here!

marcyb5st 5y ago
I'm from Italy but working in Switzerland for a FAANG company. My theory about the management-heavy way to do things in Europe is the following: in Europe is hard to fire someone unless there is a clear and willingly negligence from his/her part. Engineers' output is somewhat easier to measure than "fluffy" (pardon my lack of better words) tasks performed by management and hence it's hard to prove a manager is doing nothing. Therefore, people tend to gravitate to these positions because they almost certainly guarantee job safety. In my personal experience this happens disproportionately much in countries where worker unions have more sway (like France, Italy, and Germany). Also in my opinion it's not a coincidence that such countries create companies that are bureaucratic behemoths in which there are several different committees to take every small decision. That's how management justify its existence. This is the main reason that pushed me to go to Switzerland to work for an American company. I feel this is the sweet spot when considering worker rights, salary/purchasing power, interesting work without too much bureaucracy, quality of life, and work-life balance.
- BlargMcLarg 5y ago
  I'm unsure about this given I see the same attitude with loads of developers who carry a senior title, have been in the company for many years but barely outperform a junior with a few years of experience. My more cynical take is management and management-adjacent roles are easier to climb to and more abundant, pay better than the equivalent technical-only title and since managers largely decide what is going on, they'll obviously provide job security for themselves in whatever obscene way possible. At the same time culture views a manager as something noteworthy and of a higher rank already, which loops back and reinforces itself through payment, work and lifestyle, which then loops back to the way culture views it. The same can't be set for most developers who aren't at least partially dabbling into self-employment, entrepreneurship or management themselves, which then further reinforces the manager > developer mindset.